Jehanne Butler???
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- Dr. Why
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Jehanne Butler???
One question, I have always had was Jehanne Butler's name. I know it was Jehanne in the Dune Encyclopedia, and I can't recall if in the original six it stated her name. But my question is why change the name to Serena for the prequels?
- orald
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No name is ever given in the original six AFAIK.
Why change? Well, people more knowledgable of the writing processes of P&B(learn yer initials- Pinky and the Brain/Brian ) would have it that they wanted to diffirentiate themselves off of ol' McNielly(sp?) and seem original, so they basically robbed the DE but changed some names to make it "their own".
Why change? Well, people more knowledgable of the writing processes of P&B(learn yer initials- Pinky and the Brain/Brian ) would have it that they wanted to diffirentiate themselves off of ol' McNielly(sp?) and seem original, so they basically robbed the DE but changed some names to make it "their own".
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
- orald
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Hypatia wrote:It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.
No, it helps if we attach a bomb to Kevin's car and send him to BiG Sky Daddy to get bitch-slapped for eternity.
Ain't that right, SC?
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
- Dr. Why
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Ah, makes sense, though serena just never jived with me. I never really got passed the beginning of P&B's BJ, though I have been recently thinking of getting Road to Dune, does anyone recommend it?orald wrote:No name is ever given in the original six AFAIK.
Why change? Well, people more knowledgable of the writing processes of P&B(learn yer initials- Pinky and the Brain/Brian ) would have it that they wanted to diffirentiate themselves off of ol' McNielly(sp?) and seem original, so they basically robbed the DE but changed some names to make it "their own".
- orald
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No one can change the past, dear, but we can get revenge.Hypatia wrote:That won't unwrite what's already published.
Where's Byron when you need him?Dr wrote:I have been recently thinking of getting Road to Dune, does anyone recommend it?
I'm not sure, but I don't think people praise it. It might just be lazy(cheap) ol' me, but I wouldn't waste my money on Brian's stuff.
I think I remember people saying it's mostly some thin drivel with no real new material. Again, SC, Omph, TMB etc might know more.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
- Omphalos
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Where did I say anything about accepting Serena? It just helps to keep the two characters separate to avoid confusion about the "plot."Omphalos wrote:Helps what? To accept Serena? Bullshit.Hypatia wrote:The original novels never stated the first name. And Jehanne and Serena are not meant to be the same individuals. It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.
- Omphalos
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I don't think I implied or said that you said either way, Sue. Thus the question mark. But if it helps you to separate the plot of the preek novels, go ahead and do what ever you like.Hypatia wrote:Where did I say anything about accepting Serena? It just helps to keep the two characters separate to avoid confusion about the "plot."Omphalos wrote:Helps what? To accept Serena? Bullshit.Hypatia wrote:The original novels never stated the first name. And Jehanne and Serena are not meant to be the same individuals. It helps to think of them as alternate universe characters that have nothing to do with each other.
- SandChigger
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Ahem....
Dr Why, I have The Road to Dune but haven't read everything in it. There's some interesting content, like the excluded chapters from Dune and the alternative endings of Messiah, and the Frank Herbert correspondence...so you might want to pick up the paperback version, just to have those things.
But, honestly, a good half or more of the book is Kevin and Brian's crap. I haven't bothered reading "Spice Planet" because without inclusion of the material written by Frank Herbert it's virtually worthless and of no interest. (The hubris of the two of them, assuming that people would enjoy their interpretation and implementation of FH's outline is unbelievable. That basically holds true for all of the new books, though, doesn't it?)
Now...
The "alternative universe" concept is a "help" to two types of people:
(1) Those who want to discredit the work or contributions of someone else in order to promote (and $ell) their own; and
(2) Those who are too namby-pamby to take a definite stance and call bullshit bullshit.
Dr Why, I have The Road to Dune but haven't read everything in it. There's some interesting content, like the excluded chapters from Dune and the alternative endings of Messiah, and the Frank Herbert correspondence...so you might want to pick up the paperback version, just to have those things.
But, honestly, a good half or more of the book is Kevin and Brian's crap. I haven't bothered reading "Spice Planet" because without inclusion of the material written by Frank Herbert it's virtually worthless and of no interest. (The hubris of the two of them, assuming that people would enjoy their interpretation and implementation of FH's outline is unbelievable. That basically holds true for all of the new books, though, doesn't it?)
Now...
The "alternative universe" concept is a "help" to two types of people:
(1) Those who want to discredit the work or contributions of someone else in order to promote (and $ell) their own; and
(2) Those who are too namby-pamby to take a definite stance and call bullshit bullshit.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- Dr. Why
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SandChigger wrote:Ahem....
Dr Why, I have The Road to Dune but haven't read everything in it. There's some interesting content, like the excluded chapters from Dune and the alternative endings of Messiah, and the Frank Herbert correspondence...so you might want to pick up the paperback version, just to have those things.
But, honestly, a good half or more of the book is Kevin and Brian's crap. I haven't bothered reading "Spice Planet" because without inclusion of the material written by Frank Herbert it's virtually worthless and of no interest. (The hubris of the two of them, assuming that people would enjoy their interpretation and implementation of FH's outline is unbelievable. That basically holds true for all of the new books, though, doesn't it?)
Now...
The "alternative universe" concept is a "help" to two types of people:
(1) Those who want to discredit the work or contributions of someone else in order to promote (and $ell) their own; and
(2) Those who are too namby-pamby to take a definite stance and call bullshit bullshit.
Thanks for the advice. I might check it out, though I usually try to stay pretty far away from their work, all of thier previous books I have read have been from the library.
- SandChigger
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That's probably the wisest course of action.
I meant to add earlier that the main impression I got from the book was that it was just a cheap way of flogging off their own stuff by giving people a few tidbits of real FH material. (Their four shorts and version of "Spice Planet" have nothing to do with the history and work leading up to Dune and belong more in a book entitled The Road to Dumb.)
I meant to add earlier that the main impression I got from the book was that it was just a cheap way of flogging off their own stuff by giving people a few tidbits of real FH material. (Their four shorts and version of "Spice Planet" have nothing to do with the history and work leading up to Dune and belong more in a book entitled The Road to Dumb.)
Last edited by SandChigger on 24 May 2008 00:39, edited 1 time in total.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- Freakzilla
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I think RtD is worth it for the FH bits. I found the letters between FH and publishers very interesting. I liked the alternate ending for DM too. Never read the P&tB parts, don't plan to.
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- chanilover
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- dunaddict
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I don't know if this is old stuff around here, but I found something interesting in my (Dutch) copy of House Atreides.
I quote from the english version:
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?
I quote from the english version:
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?
- dunaddict
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You're right. Even the revised version is inconsistent with their own writing!
Here's another Butlerian Jihad 'Historical Distortion':
From 'House Atreides':
"Tio Holtzman was one of the most productive Ixian inventors on record. He often went on creative binges, locking himself up for months on end so that he could work without interruption. Sometimes upon emerging he required hospitalization, and there were constant concerns over his sanity and well-being. Holtzman died young -- barely past thirty Standard Years -- but the results of his efforts changed the galaxy forever.
-Biographical Capsules, an Imperial filmbook"
From the 'Butlerian Jihad':
"A clean-shaven man with shoulder-length gray hair, Holtzman appeared to be in his late middle years. His hands and fingernails were clean, his clothing impeccable and ornamented with stylish designs and badges."
Here's another Butlerian Jihad 'Historical Distortion':
From 'House Atreides':
"Tio Holtzman was one of the most productive Ixian inventors on record. He often went on creative binges, locking himself up for months on end so that he could work without interruption. Sometimes upon emerging he required hospitalization, and there were constant concerns over his sanity and well-being. Holtzman died young -- barely past thirty Standard Years -- but the results of his efforts changed the galaxy forever.
-Biographical Capsules, an Imperial filmbook"
From the 'Butlerian Jihad':
"A clean-shaven man with shoulder-length gray hair, Holtzman appeared to be in his late middle years. His hands and fingernails were clean, his clothing impeccable and ornamented with stylish designs and badges."
- A Thing of Eternity
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Depending on which of those was the original that might be one more piece of evidence that they were in fact using the DE as inspiration for the Legends series despite their bullshit claims otherwise. Maybe they put that Jehanne reference in the first finished draft, sent out copies, then realized that they wanted to pretend they didn't use te DE as inspiriation for their upcoming Legends series and revised it to read Butlerian warriors? Hmmm...Baraka Bryan wrote:very interesting..dunaddict wrote:I don't know if this is old stuff around here, but I found something interesting in my (Dutch) copy of House Atreides.
I quote from the english version:
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?
also, in their legends books, doesn't the sisterhood start after the BJ out of the rossack witches or whatever? so this is yet another internal contradiction on their part.
they'd probably use the excuse that the quote in H:A is an in-universe one and subject to historical distortion.
of course, they use that for almost everything they write... sorry guys but just cuz something is in-universe doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be distorted
We know about the differences in FH's books between the UK and here, also probably cause by sening out copies and then making revisions and forgetting to send the revisions to all the publishers. Hmm...
- The Sons of Idaho
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- Lisan Al-Gaib
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Gotcha! Even from the start, the DE always have been their inspiration! I would like to know the answer for that...Could someone post that at DN? I would like to see the face of the admin about that...A Thing of Eternity wrote:Depending on which of those was the original that might be one more piece of evidence that they were in fact using the DE as inspiration for the Legends series despite their bullshit claims otherwise. Maybe they put that Jehanne reference in the first finished draft, sent out copies, then realized that they wanted to pretend they didn't use te DE as inspiriation for their upcoming Legends series and revised it to read Butlerian warriors? Hmmm...Baraka Bryan wrote:very interesting..dunaddict wrote:I don't know if this is old stuff around here, but I found something interesting in my (Dutch) copy of House Atreides.
I quote from the english version:
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before the Butlerian warriors led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
my Dutch copy reads: (translated of course):
"Thousands of years of careful breeding have brought us closer than ever before to our goal. For ninety generations, a plan begun even before Jehanne Butler and her brothers led us to freedom from the thinking machines, we of the Sisterhood have planned to create our own weapon. Our own superbeing who will bridge space and time with his mind."
Looks like they cut the Jehanna reference in the english version. Maybe they got sued by NcNelly and changed her name to Serena in their subsequent prequels?
also, in their legends books, doesn't the sisterhood start after the BJ out of the rossack witches or whatever? so this is yet another internal contradiction on their part.
they'd probably use the excuse that the quote in H:A is an in-universe one and subject to historical distortion.
of course, they use that for almost everything they write... sorry guys but just cuz something is in-universe doesn't mean it's guaranteed to be distorted
We know about the differences in FH's books between the UK and here, also probably cause by sening out copies and then making revisions and forgetting to send the revisions to all the publishers. Hmm...
Liers....
The singular multiplicity of this universe draws my deepest attention. It is a thing of ultimate beauty.
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-- The Stolen Journals
- dunaddict
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HA!!! If you think that's sacrilege, then what do you call this? The dutch cover for 'Hunters of Dune': Click and shiverBaraka Bryan wrote:fuck that's a sacrelige ehAmpoliros wrote:the worst part of Road to Dune is seeing Frank Herbert's name mentioned as a co-author with KJA
Thankfully, they fixed it in later prints. But I own this one...
- dunaddict
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There is another explanation; Lazy Brian copy/pasted dune-facts from the Encyclopedia into that Concordance he wrote and didn't bother to check which facts originated from the original novels and which didn't.Gotcha! Even from the start, the DE always have been their inspiration! I would like to know the answer for that...Could someone post that at DN? I would like to see the face of the admin about that...
Liers....
When the duo finished writing 'House Atreides' someone finally spotted the mistake, but they'd already sent out copies to most publishers, as ATOE suggested.