Pre-C.E.T. religions
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- Dr. Why
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Pre-C.E.T. religions
What is your opinion on the melding of religions in the Duniverse? One I am very much interested in the history of is the Buddislamic ones, such as how Buddhism and Islam came together.
- A Thing of Eternity
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I imagine it would be very rare for a religion to form which openly admits to being a blend of two religions, but that's how many current religions did form. For instance Sikhism was heavily influenced by both Hindu and Islamic beleifs, the former of those two having obvious ties with Buddhism. It's not out of the question, but history seems to point to complete re-naming of religions instead of taking a blended name.
- orald
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Well, history repeats itself.
Of course, one could see how all the ignorant infidels muck about in their fake blended religions while the True Faith is kept alive, if in secret from the unwashed masses, by the Chosen People.
Guess what I'm hinting at.
Of course, one could see how all the ignorant infidels muck about in their fake blended religions while the True Faith is kept alive, if in secret from the unwashed masses, by the Chosen People.
Guess what I'm hinting at.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
- A Thing of Eternity
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- orald
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- A Thing of Eternity
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- orald
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You really didn't understand my first post here?
Well, lets break down the joke, shall we?
The Jews have, again, seperated themselves from the rest, not blending with the other religions and keeping to themselves, only this time hiding it.
That's of course why you still see Jews today(or in the future in Ch:D), but non of the other ancient religions, we're just that much stubborn.
Well, lets break down the joke, shall we?
The Jews have, again, seperated themselves from the rest, not blending with the other religions and keeping to themselves, only this time hiding it.
That's of course why you still see Jews today(or in the future in Ch:D), but non of the other ancient religions, we're just that much stubborn.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
- A Thing of Eternity
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- Omphalos
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- SandChigger
- KJASF Ground Zero
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I kinda remember posting in a thread like this (can't remember if I started it or not)...but was it in Dead Zone 1 or Dead Zone 2? Hmmm.
My question IIRC was more about how a syncretism between religions as different as Islam and Buddhism could really happen.
Islam is monotheistic, ritualistic, very concerned with sin and purity and the ultimate destiny of the world and the soul. Buddhism is atheistic, less into ritual, denies the soul and is focused on the attainment of a certain "perspective". (More or less.)
A big...ahem, strong...common interest...or just long cohabitation by adherents of the two religions?
(Note that the name Ali Ben Ohashi implies an intermarriage of Arab and Japanese. The wife's name, btw, could be translated as "Number Two Wife". "Chop chop, Hopsing!" "Yessir, Mistah Hoss!" )
My question IIRC was more about how a syncretism between religions as different as Islam and Buddhism could really happen.
Islam is monotheistic, ritualistic, very concerned with sin and purity and the ultimate destiny of the world and the soul. Buddhism is atheistic, less into ritual, denies the soul and is focused on the attainment of a certain "perspective". (More or less.)
A big...ahem, strong...common interest...or just long cohabitation by adherents of the two religions?
This tells us that there was a "Second Muhammed" in addition to this Maometh, well before 1381 B.G. It doesn't really tell us anything about the origins of Buddhislam, though.FH in the Terminology in Dune wrote:ZENSUNNI: followers of a schismatic sect that broke away from the teachings of Maometh (the so-called "Third Muhammed") about 1381 B.G. The Zensunni religion is noted chiefly for its emphasis on the mystical and a reversion to "the ways of the fathers." Most scholars name Ali Ben Ohashi as leader of the original schism but there is some evidence that Ohashi may have been merely the male spokesman for his second wife, Nisai.
(Note that the name Ali Ben Ohashi implies an intermarriage of Arab and Japanese. The wife's name, btw, could be translated as "Number Two Wife". "Chop chop, Hopsing!" "Yessir, Mistah Hoss!" )
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- SandChigger
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Being the oldest of the three, Judaism's borrowings are probably better hidden (blended?) and you have to look harder, maybe? Yahweh in his early years was just a little pissant tribal deity worshipped by illiterate nomads who lifted a lot of their early beliefs and scriptures from the older traditions of peoples around them.A Thing of Eternity wrote:You're hinting that Judaism is thought to be a blend of several other religions? Or that Christianity and Islam are blended religions?
Christianity and Islam were both essentially created by single individuals, Saul the Heresiarch and Muhammad Who Heard Angels (wink wink). Saul was a brilliant snake-oil salesman who co-opted a slightly interesting Jewish apocalyptic revivalist movement and turned it into a successful mystery religion (all the rage in the Imperium at the time). And Muhammad...meh, "Jews on Horses" kinda covers it, no?
Christianity (I prefer Paulianity) absorbed a ton of local traditions and deities (all them saints, eh?) as it spread. (Buddhism did the same, I believe.) I'm not sure if Islam has done the same as much, though. In a sense, it may be a purer strain than the other two...accounting perhaps for its much greater virulence. (Christianity has lost some of its perniciousness, but it's still fairly nasty. Judaism has become kind of a rich bitch country club of religions: admission by invitation only. )
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- orald
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Now now, that's not fair. Everyone was illitarate back then.SandChigger wrote:Yahweh in his early years was just a little pissant tribal deity worshipped by illiterate nomads who lifted a lot of their early beliefs and scriptures from the older traditions of peoples around them.
But yea, Judaism really changed since it ditched all the sacrifices.
And Muhammad...meh, "Jews on Horses" kinda covers it, no?
Oh, don't worry, Islam is getting tons of new "martyrs", or shahids, each day. Hopefully it'll get a fuckload more, like, say, a few millions each day? C'mon God, we need a few more tsunamies in Indonisia!I'm not sure if Islam has done the same as much, though. In a sense, it may be a purer strain than the other two...accounting perhaps for its much greater virulence.
Not true. If you prove yourself knowledgeable enough of all the country club rules you're in. We just like to keep the trolls out there with the rest of the Christians etc.Judaism has become kind of a rich bitch country club of religions: admission by invitation only. )
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
- A Thing of Eternity
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- Pardot Kynes
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The primary theory is that Judaism has no real borrowings- All faiths that originated around the time of Sumeria and the Mesopotamian Wars are thought to have originated from one original religion, and everything that came after was a result of a schism in the churches.
I choose to believe, however, that some major shit went down (Mesopotamian flood and such), and many religions simply included that in their writings- that each culture evolved separately and not together- then splitting.
Why couldn't something like that happen in the Duniverse? Who is to say that humanity spreading out wouldn't seriously impact other religions?
Something like that would certainly have consequences of a drastic nature.
I choose to believe, however, that some major shit went down (Mesopotamian flood and such), and many religions simply included that in their writings- that each culture evolved separately and not together- then splitting.
Why couldn't something like that happen in the Duniverse? Who is to say that humanity spreading out wouldn't seriously impact other religions?
Something like that would certainly have consequences of a drastic nature.
What we wish, we readily believe, and what we ourselves think, we imagine others think also.
-Julius Caesar
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/451/451.html
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- SandChigger
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- orald
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And of course all those ancient religions are in debt to prehistoric tribal ones anyway. Just like we as human are in debt to australopitecus africanus(sp?) or w/e. It's always about evolution.
I think the idea of shahids is there from at least the crusades(?), but they never really made any prominant, memorable figures out of every dead guy.
I know, but that's also true. Islam doesn't have all that "St. Prick of the ShitHitTheFan" bullshit in a degree that Christianity has(also true for all other religions, all those prophets and center figures are some form of saint, but I think only Chris' has a shitload of them).AToE wrote:I don't think he was talking about Islamic Martyrs Orald, he's saying they haven't done as much assimilating of other religions as Christianity.
I think the idea of shahids is there from at least the crusades(?), but they never really made any prominant, memorable figures out of every dead guy.
In memory of Perach, who suffered and died needlessly.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
I wish I could have been with you that one last time.
- SandChigger
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AToE read me right: I was referring to the strategy of adopting older local deities as minor deities of the new religion (saints and holy loons in the case of Christianity) as a way of smoothing the transition for the populace.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- SandChigger
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- A Thing of Eternity
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The Christians also did a great job adopting/mutating local holy days into Christianity. As far as I know both Easter and Christmas where actually pagan holidays originally. May be others.SandChigger wrote:AToE read me right: I was referring to the strategy of adopting older local deities as minor deities of the new religion (saints and holy loons in the case of Christianity) as a way of smoothing the transition for the populace.
- Freakzilla
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- SandChigger
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All Hallows Day (& Halloween) is another one.A Thing of Eternity wrote:The Christians also did a great job adopting/mutating local holy days into Christianity. As far as I know both Easter and Christmas where actually pagan holidays originally. May be others.
Freak, I'm pretty sure the Arabs were polytheistic before Islam, but I don't know if it would be right to say Islam developed from polytheism. It's more an amalgam of Judaism and Christianity and sand and sweat and being cooped up in a cave alone too long, no? (Ooh, stretchy pants AND curly-toed shoes!)
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- Pardot Kynes
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Ah. Understood then, chiggy boy
And, they didn't really evolve- they were thought of as nuts.
IE, "Only ONE god? What can HE do? We got 20000! Bet they can kick his ass!"
It... transitioned, so to speak, but didn't evolve. There was too much tension for that to happen.
And, they didn't really evolve- they were thought of as nuts.
IE, "Only ONE god? What can HE do? We got 20000! Bet they can kick his ass!"
It... transitioned, so to speak, but didn't evolve. There was too much tension for that to happen.
What we wish, we readily believe, and what we ourselves think, we imagine others think also.
-Julius Caesar
http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/451/451.html
http://omacl.org/
- A Thing of Eternity
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I've read that Judaism did evolve from a merging of several tribe's religions, but I think each one was already Monotheistic. Could be wrong.Freakzilla wrote:Didn't Judaism and Islam evolve from polytheism?
Islam, not so much. Like Chig says it was basically a revision of Judaism and Christianity. Muhammad did bring together many polythiestic groups and convert them. I think he may have borrowed a few traditions from them but did not blend them an pick one god as the highest or anything.