The C.E.T. meets in Hawai'i. Deal with it.
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The C.E.T. meets in Hawai'i. Deal with it.
So...are we all in agreement that they meet in Hawai'i?
(Edited 12/21/08: Title changed from simply "The Commission of Ecumenical Translators". Because the world is full of idiots. —SC)
(Edited 12/21/08: Title changed from simply "The Commission of Ecumenical Translators". Because the world is full of idiots. —SC)
Last edited by SandChigger on 21 Dec 2008 08:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Commission of Ecumenical Translators
Yes, but I prefer to call them the "Old Cranks"SandChigger wrote:So...are we all in agreement that they meet in Hawai'i?
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Here's the link to the thread on DN for now:
http://www.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1598
I'm cleaning a copy of the entire thread for reposting here, so hang on a bit....
http://www.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1598
I'm cleaning a copy of the entire thread for reposting here, so hang on a bit....
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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And that C.E.T. "neutral island" is...(drum roll).
SandChigger
Jeez...can this have been any more obvious? Hasn't anyone noticed this before?
Any reason NOT to think that the location intended is the Sandwich Islands? AKA Hawai'i?
What would be so witty about including those references if the CET meeting was on Crete, Madagascar, or the Isle of Man, for example?
chanilover
Would Hawaii have sunk by then? I remember seeing maps on the wall in school of the continents shifting so I wonder what the Earth would look like in 11,000 years time (is that when the Butlerian Jihad is due?)
SandChigger
Nah, 11~13,000 years is nothing in geological time. (I think the oldest island is supposed to be something like 5 million years old; they get younger as you move south-east down the archipelago, with Hawai'i itself being the youngest, with still active volcanoes.)
The islands sit pretty much right in the middle of the Pacific plate, so they're not going to "sink" for a long time...they might erode away before that? Anyway, as soon as one island moves far enough away from the "hot spot" below, a new one forms....
Too bad it wasn't Bali Hai...all those great songs...
Freakzilla
I thought the Hawaiian Islands were still growing.
The tectonic plate is moving to the Northwest while the hotspot that creates the volcanoes remanes stationary, periodically creating new volcanoes. This is why only the SW islands are still active.
In the distant future there will be more islands.
Omphalos
Yea, I was gonna say I would think with all theunderground volcanic activity that more land would build up by then.
Great eye, Sandchigger. I never would have put that together.
And didnt FH live for some time in Hawaii? Or like to go there for family vacations?
Joe 90
I try not to get too exercised about differences in the traditions handed down over millenia (JRRT's explanation for discrepancies) but I have been idly wondering how the CET met on an island of old Earth when the timing seems to indicate it was not very long after the Earth was comprehensively nuked by the Jihad.
Maybe in a time of long established space travel island might mean orbiting facility?
Or did I miss something?
Freakzilla
Don't worry though, if it's not explained in Sandworms or the official FAQ after that, they will probably write an 1,800 page trilogy about it and explain it all. Or like other issues, they could simply state that they found notes to the contrary of FHs published works and this is what he really meant to write.
SandChigger
Hey, Joe.
JRRT was referring to discrepancies found in his own works, right? This is a potential discrepancy introduced by later writers. (If they say "But it's in the Notes!" then I say "Prove it.")
The bombardment took place at the beginning of the Jihad. According to the timeline on this site (emphasis added):
Sorry—and I don't mean this against you personally—but it was a silly idea when Zeus or whoever first suggested it and it's a silly idea now.
And probably very close to what they'll go with.
Joe 90
No worries Chigger, this is something I do to occupy my brain while eating, it's not important.
In fact after watching a recording of the Jeremy Clarkson programme about the St Nazaire raid last night, I don't think anything I ever did was very important! I knew the basic story but, like his similar programme about Arnhem, the testimony of the veterans makes me feel very small and ready to cry!
[BEGIN SECTION OF SOLE MAN BASHING]
Sole man (Post subject: On what-the-Frig is this about?)
Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?
guildnavigator
Read the thread. They are discussing whether or not hawaii would exist 10000 years from now. They are talking about this because an island is mentioned that the CET met on in Dune, is suggested to be Hawaii. Thats your explanation.
SandChigger
(And you don't know me well enough to call me "Hun". ONLY ChiggerBint currently holds that honor.)
Tleilax Master B
Omphalos
chanilover
Yet another anal grunt from Sloey. Why hasn't he called someone an idiot?
Joe 90
No, my ramble about St Nazaire had nothing to do with Dune other putting our Dune ramblings in perspective. Sorry and all that!
SandChigger
I really don't think that was what Sloe Thang was on about. Don't worry about it, eh!
Tleilax Master B
Seriously, Joe, you can pretty much blatantly disregard anything that comes from Sloe Man. Soon, we will all be called old farts and idiots. Once that happens, you have officially been accepted into the brotherhood of Dune fans on this site
Eru
Omphalos
[END SOLE MAN BASHING]
nessus7487
I think if youre going to compare the Butlerian Jihad in the LEgends series with Frank's statements in the appendicies youre going to be frustrated. The evolution of the major schools as well as the changes in religon and descriptions of the Jihad are completely different.
Bridge of Hrethgir anyone?
Omphalos
Here's a new one! ABANDON ALL LOGIC, YE WHO ENTER THESE 8 NEW BOOKS!
SandChigger
Jeez...can this have been any more obvious? Hasn't anyone noticed this before?
Um...Leis, people? Brown repose? A toll (atoll?) for Lord Sandwich? (Yeah, that last's a bit of a stretch...but then again....) Lazing through the days...those damned lucky Pacific Island Types!(FH in the Religion Appendix of Dune) wrote:Troubadours composed witty, biting songs about the one hundred and twenty-one "Old Cranks" as the C.E.T. delegates came to be called. (The name arose from a ribald joke which played on the C.E.T. initials and called the delegates "Cranks-Effing-Turners.") One of the songs, "Brown Repose," has undergone periodic revival and is popular even today:
"Consider leis.
Brown repose—and
The tragedy
In all of those
Cranks! All those Cranks!
So laze—so laze
Through all your days.
Time has toll'd for
M'Lord Sandwich!"
Any reason NOT to think that the location intended is the Sandwich Islands? AKA Hawai'i?
What would be so witty about including those references if the CET meeting was on Crete, Madagascar, or the Isle of Man, for example?
chanilover
Would Hawaii have sunk by then? I remember seeing maps on the wall in school of the continents shifting so I wonder what the Earth would look like in 11,000 years time (is that when the Butlerian Jihad is due?)
SandChigger
Nah, 11~13,000 years is nothing in geological time. (I think the oldest island is supposed to be something like 5 million years old; they get younger as you move south-east down the archipelago, with Hawai'i itself being the youngest, with still active volcanoes.)
The islands sit pretty much right in the middle of the Pacific plate, so they're not going to "sink" for a long time...they might erode away before that? Anyway, as soon as one island moves far enough away from the "hot spot" below, a new one forms....
Too bad it wasn't Bali Hai...all those great songs...
Freakzilla
I thought the Hawaiian Islands were still growing.
The tectonic plate is moving to the Northwest while the hotspot that creates the volcanoes remanes stationary, periodically creating new volcanoes. This is why only the SW islands are still active.
In the distant future there will be more islands.
Omphalos
Freakzilla wrote:I thought the Hawaiian Islands were still growing.
The tectonic plate is moving to the Northwest while the hotspot that creates the volcanoes remanes stationary, periodically creating new volcanoes. This is why only the SW islands are still active.
In the distant future there will be more islands.
Yea, I was gonna say I would think with all theunderground volcanic activity that more land would build up by then.
Great eye, Sandchigger. I never would have put that together.
And didnt FH live for some time in Hawaii? Or like to go there for family vacations?
Joe 90
I try not to get too exercised about differences in the traditions handed down over millenia (JRRT's explanation for discrepancies) but I have been idly wondering how the CET met on an island of old Earth when the timing seems to indicate it was not very long after the Earth was comprehensively nuked by the Jihad.
Maybe in a time of long established space travel island might mean orbiting facility?
Or did I miss something?
Freakzilla
No, you didn't miss anything, I think the authors missed it.Joe 90 wrote:I try not to get too exercised about differences in the traditions handed down over millenia (JRRT's explanation for discrepancies) but I have been idly wondering how the CET met on an island of old Earth when the timing seems to indicate it was not very long after the Earth was comprehensively nuked by the Jihad.
Maybe in a time of long established space travel island might mean orbiting facility?
Or did I miss something?
Don't worry though, if it's not explained in Sandworms or the official FAQ after that, they will probably write an 1,800 page trilogy about it and explain it all. Or like other issues, they could simply state that they found notes to the contrary of FHs published works and this is what he really meant to write.
SandChigger
Hey, Joe.
JRRT was referring to discrepancies found in his own works, right? This is a potential discrepancy introduced by later writers. (If they say "But it's in the Notes!" then I say "Prove it.")
The bombardment took place at the beginning of the Jihad. According to the timeline on this site (emphasis added):
No definite date is given for the C.E.T. meeting on Earth, but based on the Religion appendix it has to take place early in the A.G. period.200 B.G.
Using atomics, the League wipes out the thinking machines of Earth. The nuclear attack renders Earth uninhabitable for centuries. [The Butlerian Jihad]
Sure...that seems reasonable and makes perfect sense, doesn't it? But it's not what the text says and there is absolutely nothing in the passage or elsewhere which would support such a reading. Particularly if you take the song into consideration. (Or was the songwriter just playing off the old allusions of "island"? Why the reference to Lord Sandwich then? Who's going to remember Lord Sandwich in 13,000 years? Especially after all the databases are gone.)Joe 90 wrote:Maybe in a time of long established space travel island might mean orbiting facility?
Sorry—and I don't mean this against you personally—but it was a silly idea when Zeus or whoever first suggested it and it's a silly idea now.
And probably very close to what they'll go with.
Joe 90
No worries Chigger, this is something I do to occupy my brain while eating, it's not important.
In fact after watching a recording of the Jeremy Clarkson programme about the St Nazaire raid last night, I don't think anything I ever did was very important! I knew the basic story but, like his similar programme about Arnhem, the testimony of the veterans makes me feel very small and ready to cry!
[BEGIN SECTION OF SOLE MAN BASHING]
Sole man (Post subject: On what-the-Frig is this about?)
Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?
guildnavigator
Read the thread. They are discussing whether or not hawaii would exist 10000 years from now. They are talking about this because an island is mentioned that the CET met on in Dune, is suggested to be Hawaii. Thats your explanation.
SandChigger
Read much?Sole man wrote:Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?
(And you don't know me well enough to call me "Hun". ONLY ChiggerBint currently holds that honor.)
Tleilax Master B
You're wrong. You have officially been correctedSole man wrote:Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?
Omphalos
It would be much easier to tell him when he is right. But then we would be silent.Tleilax Master B wrote:You're wrong. You have officially been correctedSole man wrote:Hun? Correct me if I'm wrong, but, what does have Anything to do with DUNE?
chanilover
Yet another anal grunt from Sloey. Why hasn't he called someone an idiot?
Joe 90
No, my ramble about St Nazaire had nothing to do with Dune other putting our Dune ramblings in perspective. Sorry and all that!
SandChigger
I really don't think that was what Sloe Thang was on about. Don't worry about it, eh!
Tleilax Master B
Seriously, Joe, you can pretty much blatantly disregard anything that comes from Sloe Man. Soon, we will all be called old farts and idiots. Once that happens, you have officially been accepted into the brotherhood of Dune fans on this site
Eru
I've always said, the villiage idiot is an intregral to our society! Here, he is a part of our hazing rituals. But, Joe's not accepted until he "responds" appropriately against the Sloester. That is a very important part of the hazing.Tleilax Master B wrote:Seriously, Joe, you can pretty much blatantly disregard anything that comes from Sloe Man. Soon, we will all be called old farts and idiots. Once that happens, you have officially been accepted into the brotherhood of Dune fans on this site
Omphalos
Actually, Im pretty sure he wasnt even responding to you. He just read the first post and decided to be an a$$ and ask what Hawaii has to do with Dune. Not like we can expect him to read a whole thread, as that may make his little head hurt too much.Joe 90 wrote:No, my ramble about St Nazaire had nothing to do with Dune other putting our Dune ramblings in perspective. Sorry and all that!
[END SOLE MAN BASHING]
nessus7487
I think if youre going to compare the Butlerian Jihad in the LEgends series with Frank's statements in the appendicies youre going to be frustrated. The evolution of the major schools as well as the changes in religon and descriptions of the Jihad are completely different.
Bridge of Hrethgir anyone?
Omphalos
Here's a new one! ABANDON ALL LOGIC, YE WHO ENTER THESE 8 NEW BOOKS!
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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The whole Hawaii thing seems fairly resonable to me. Can't believe I never noticed that before! Well done good sir!
Atrocity is recognized as such by victim and perpetrator alike, by all who learn about it at whatever remove. Atrocity has no excuses, no mitigating argument. Atrocity never balances or rectifies the past. Atrocity merely arms the future for more atrocity. It is self-perpetuating upon itself—a barbarous form of incest. Whoever commits atrocity also commits those future atrocities thus bred.
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Well, there's a reason behind pointing this out, of course.
To wit:
HOW IN FOCH'S NAME CAN THE C.E.T. MEET ON AN ISLAND OF OLD EARTH AFTER THE POST-JIHAD RELIGIOUS RIOTS IF THE FRICKING PLANET WAS FRIED WITH ATOMICS?!
Ahem.
I'm sure they (meaning Kevin) will pull some mucus-slick rationalization out of their steaming writer holes, but this was simply a stupid, stupid oversight.
By the two biggest fans of Dune in the world. Amen.
To wit:
HOW IN FOCH'S NAME CAN THE C.E.T. MEET ON AN ISLAND OF OLD EARTH AFTER THE POST-JIHAD RELIGIOUS RIOTS IF THE FRICKING PLANET WAS FRIED WITH ATOMICS?!
Ahem.
I'm sure they (meaning Kevin) will pull some mucus-slick rationalization out of their steaming writer holes, but this was simply a stupid, stupid oversight.
By the two biggest fans of Dune in the world. Amen.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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lol..right..the 2 biggest dune fans...its sad...that i know more about dune than 2 dune authorsSandChigger wrote:I'm sure they (meaning Kevin) will pull some mucus-slick rationalization out of their steaming writer holes, but this was simply a stupid, stupid oversight.
By the two biggest fans of Dune in the world. Amen.
Your friendly neighborhood Tyrant!!!
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Word to that chigger. I'm actually rather impressed you figured out the Old Cranks met on Hawaii! (I also appreciate the inclusion of the Sloe Man bashing I tried to convince sloey to come here, but he gave me the same line as before that he is staying at DN to the bitter end.)SandChigger wrote:Well, there's a reason behind pointing this out, of course.
To wit:
HOW IN FOCH'S NAME CAN THE C.E.T. MEET ON AN ISLAND OF OLD EARTH AFTER THE POST-JIHAD RELIGIOUS RIOTS IF THE FRICKING PLANET WAS FRIED WITH ATOMICS?!
Ahem.
I'm sure they (meaning Kevin) will pull some mucus-slick rationalization out of their steaming writer holes, but this was simply a stupid, stupid oversight.
By the two biggest fans of Dune in the world. Amen.
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He is a bit "sloe" sometimes. But still young, so there's hope.
Yeah, I wait, ready to pounce, to see what The Hacks Twain do about this one. In some ways, I wonder if maybe I shouldn't have kept it quiet, just PMed people about it, leave it a trap for the boobies. In this way they are forewarned and will be busy frothing out some asinine rationalization.
Remember that TAZ proposed terraforming, or an orbital station via the ole historical distortion gambit. (Hell, it "worked" for them for the Bridge battle, no? )
Terraforming, on that scale, during the chaos after the Jihad and with the religious riots, just doesn't make sense.
Feh!
Yeah, I wait, ready to pounce, to see what The Hacks Twain do about this one. In some ways, I wonder if maybe I shouldn't have kept it quiet, just PMed people about it, leave it a trap for the boobies. In this way they are forewarned and will be busy frothing out some asinine rationalization.
Remember that TAZ proposed terraforming, or an orbital station via the ole historical distortion gambit. (Hell, it "worked" for them for the Bridge battle, no? )
Terraforming, on that scale, during the chaos after the Jihad and with the religious riots, just doesn't make sense.
Feh!
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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Maybe some of you have noticed that DrunkenDuncan started a thread over on DumbNovels entitled Question about Old Earth. I noticed the most recent posts by Muad'Dib56 and someone with the stupid user name "AwakeTheDay" really move the discussion along:
UTTER AND COMPLETE STUPIDITY, BEYOND BELIEF!
(Maybe you should get a thesaurus and look up "maybe"? )Muad'Dib56 wrote:maybe when they mean an island of old earth, maybe they mean the moon, or old space stations sorrounding earth that survived... maybe when they mean old earth, they mean all of our solar system, sol. so another island could be the moons of jupiter or saturn
Yes, in a bizzaro world where a "barrier" composed of spaceships filled with human hostages can be called a "bridge", why the hell shouldn't "a neutral island of Old Earth" mean a space station or moon. Fuck those obvious Polynesian elements in the song the wags write to make fun of the C.E.T. delegates! "Details," says Kevin, "WE DON'T CARE ABOUT NO FOOKING DETAILS!!!"AwakeTheDay, responding, wrote:i like the idea of the moon that makes perfect sense. or a space station even better. since the earth was nuked, it had to be something like that. the moon could have bases with air. why not?
UTTER AND COMPLETE STUPIDITY, BEYOND BELIEF!
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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What's his latest acomplishment? I can't set foot in that place 'cause it's like bathing in lava...of stupidity.SandChigger wrote:Bumping this one, because there's an idiot among idiots over on Dumb Novels called Bel Moulay who really should learn to keep his stupid opinions to himself until he learns to read.
Shove that up your comfort zone.
"The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand." - Frank Herbert
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Nothing really worth even repeating, but....
Basically he's just repeating TAZ's old idea that "a neutral island of Old Earth" doesn't necessarily have to refer to a real, physical island. It could mean a "chunk" of the planet (I suppose he's imagining it exploded into pieces) or an orbital platform or satellite, or even the Moon.
Go read the passage (Dune, Appendix II, the section on the C.E.T.) for yourself and tell me if you think that's a plausible interpretation of what FH wrote.
Or if when reading that passage you get any sense that the Earth had been devasted with atomic weapons by human forces early in the Jihad.
The stupidity is unbelievable.
And that goes for the two "authors" as well. Either they never bothered reading this particular appendix before writing the Legends books or they had already decided to supplant Frank's writings with their own bullshit.
Basically he's just repeating TAZ's old idea that "a neutral island of Old Earth" doesn't necessarily have to refer to a real, physical island. It could mean a "chunk" of the planet (I suppose he's imagining it exploded into pieces) or an orbital platform or satellite, or even the Moon.
Go read the passage (Dune, Appendix II, the section on the C.E.T.) for yourself and tell me if you think that's a plausible interpretation of what FH wrote.
Or if when reading that passage you get any sense that the Earth had been devasted with atomic weapons by human forces early in the Jihad.
The stupidity is unbelievable.
And that goes for the two "authors" as well. Either they never bothered reading this particular appendix before writing the Legends books or they had already decided to supplant Frank's writings with their own bullshit.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
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Thnks. I lent my copy of Dune to my cousin but i dont need to re-read it to know it's an idiotic idea that an "island" means the moon or anything else.SandChigger wrote:Nothing really worth even repeating, but....
Basically he's just repeating TAZ's old idea that "a neutral island of Old Earth" doesn't necessarily have to refer to a real, physical island. It could mean a "chunk" of the planet (I suppose he's imagining it exploded into pieces) or an orbital platform or satellite, or even the Moon.
Go read the passage (Dune, Appendix II, the section on the C.E.T.) for yourself and tell me if you think that's a plausible interpretation of what FH wrote.
Or if when reading that passage you get any sense that the Earth had been devasted with atomic weapons by human forces early in the Jihad.
The stupidity is unbelievable.
And that goes for the two "authors" as well. Either they never bothered reading this particular appendix before writing the Legends books or they had already decided to supplant Frank's writings with their own bullshit.
It's just sad to see people reduced to such a low point to explain KJA and the other guy's fuck ups.
First it's the "alien" stuff that Frank Herbert refers to as something exotic, strange, neverseen before, out of place (for fuck's sake Duncan referes to his existence in GEoD as alien to the world he's in); then you have the "island" stuff that actually means an island and they wonder off like they drank a keg of absint. The notes bullshit really harvested their brains
"The beginning of knowledge is the discovery of something we do not understand." - Frank Herbert
“This tutoring is dialectical. Literature makes us better noticers of life; we get to practice on life itself; which in turn makes us better readers of detail in literature; which in turn makes us better readers of life. And so on and on.” - James Wood