Chapter 64

[Freakzilla]

As with so many other religions, Muad'Dib's Golden Elixir of Life degenerated
into external wizardry. Its mystical signs became mere symbols for deeper
psychological processes, and those processes, of course, ran wild. What they
needed was a living god, and they didn't have one, a situation which Muad'Dib's
son has corrected.
-Saying attributed to Lu Tung-pin, (Lu, The Guest of the Cavern)


For hours Leto sits on the Lion throne accepting homage and gifts from the delegates of the Fremen tribes, promising them peace. As a demonstration of his power the week before, he had walked through fire, been attacked with knives, withstood acids, eaten poisons, stood in the path of a worm and toppled a Guild frigate. Jessica watches from the spyhole behind the throne and is not surprised the twins outmaneuvered The Sisterhood, they had more Reverend Mothers in Other Memory than were alive in the Empire. She feels bitterness at the Sisterhood for the fear upon fear installed in Alia, and the twins finding two ways out of possession made it that much worse. Alia’s water was poured on the sand. Leto has Paul’s water in a giant canopic jar next to his throne and Farad’n sits beside it as Royal Scribe. Stilgar is the last Naib in ceremony and he has nothing to offer but the headband worn by Ghanima when he took her into the desert to protect her. Leto understands the hard times and offers Stilgar anything from the piles of gifts around the throne, but he refuses. Stilgar claims Paul’s water as belonging to his tribe but Leto says it’s his tribe too. Leto calls Farad’n before him and asks for his Sardaukar. He explains how he has not really escaped possession but he is a community of inner lives dominated by Harum, that he will marry Ghanima instead but Farad’n must mate with her to continue the Atreides dynasty and the Bene Gesserit breeding program which is now Leto’s. Farad’n thinks this a high price for his Sardaukar and says he will resist Leto’s enforced peace. Leto says this is why he chose him, he renames Farad’n as Harq al-Ada meaning Breaking of the Habit. Leto leaves and Ghanima tells Farad’n that one of them had to accept the agony, but Leto was always the stronger.

The End

[trang]

Finally finished the reread, and rediscovered just how much is layed out in these last pages. Very powerful lead into GEoD. I still don't understand the need for the Saudaukar mixing with the Fremen, if I interpreted that right. He wanted them to intermix, not just be joined fighting force.

Was it that the Fremen had lost their edge and Leto thought the Saudaukar would bring it back? so this interim force would be strong enough to break down the rebel factions until he arrives at the fishspeakers?

Another question that keeps popping up is about the breeding program. Leto says he is taking over the Bene Gesserit program. Their focus was breeding multiple "Human" lines to achieve the Male Reverend or Kwisatz Haderach? His is to breed the Atreides dynasty, which is completely different.

Is Atreides a blood line or a concept at this juncture? Paul was Corrino, Harkonen, and his father's line. Leto II and Ghanima were there fathers father's line, Harkonen, Corrino, and Half-Fremen (Liet Kynes plus his Fremen wife). The mix continues when you ponder where the Fremen stem from.

You take all that and then add back in the Half-blooded Corrino Farad'n (Wensica, daughter of Shadam and who ever she spawned with, which line would that be?) with Ghanima for the future. They're offspring, truly Atreides? the blood line is so washed at this point.

The first child from Ghanima/Farad'n is Corrino, Harkonen, Fremen, Atreides, and a few unknowns. This is pretty convoluted moving forward. I know its not part of this chapter but It sure makes me wonder when you get to GEoD, and bring Duncan's Ghola's into the fold. Duncan was not a bloodline Atreides. His blood origins are unknown (im not gonna bring up the twit books) and Duncan figures into the future breeding for sure.

Atreides a concept or bloodline at this point? The impact to the Imperium? well since its already been written by FH not a whole hell of a lot, just a discussion point.

Also haven't seen Freak post in while is he on vacation?

[Aquila ka-Hecate]

The way it comes across to me, Leto and the BG have the same end in mind - the 'parenting' of the human race into maturity.

So I wouldn't say that the 2 breeding programs weren't so different in aim, at all.

I also understood that House Atreides was, at this point, and perhaps for years before this point, a set of ethics, and yes, a concept more than an actual bloodline. This is the only thing which makes the continual resurrection of Idaho sensible, in a way. And also that he provides an earlier copy of human DNA of course.

[SandChigger]

Right, the KH project was just one aspect of the BG breeding program. And even though it had been underway for "ninety generations" (according to Paul in Dune), that's only around 4000 years, or less than half the time the BG had been in existence. They were all about preserving the human and separating it from the animal.

[Freakzilla]

Finally finished the reread, and rediscovered just how much is layed out in these last pages. Very powerful lead into GEoD. I still don't understand the need for the Saudaukar mixing with the Fremen, if I interpreted that right. He wanted them to intermix, not just be joined fighting force.

Was it that the Fremen had lost their edge and Leto thought the Saudaukar would bring it back? so this interim force would be strong enough to break down the rebel factions until he arrives at the fishspeakers?

Leto was about to inherit an empire in a state of civil war. Not only between Imperial and Desert Fremen, but Imperial House Atreides and it's allies against House Corrino and theirs. Leto could reunite the Fremen and probably just barely defeat the Sardaukar but this would have left him with a sorry force to beat the rest of his empire down the Golden Path.

Another question that keeps popping up is about the breeding program. Leto says he is taking over the Bene Gesserit program. Their focus was breeding multiple "Human" lines to achieve the Male Reverend or Kwisatz Haderach? His is to breed the Atreides dynasty, which is completely different.

Is Atreides a blood line or a concept at this juncture? Paul was Corrino, Harkonen, and his father's line. Leto II and Ghanima were there fathers father's line, Harkonen, Corrino, and Half-Fremen (Liet Kynes plus his Fremen wife). The mix continues when you ponder where the Fremen stem from.

You take all that and then add back in the Half-blooded Corrino Farad'n (Wensica, daughter of Shadam and who ever she spawned with, which line would that be?) with Ghanima for the future. They're offspring, truly Atreides? the blood line is so washed at this point.

The first child from Ghanima/Farad'n is Corrino, Harkonen, Fremen, Atreides, and a few unknowns. This is pretty convoluted moving forward. I know its not part of this chapter but It sure makes me wonder when you get to GEoD, and bring Duncan's Ghola's into the fold. Duncan was not a bloodline Atreides. His blood origins are unknown (im not gonna bring up the twit books) and Duncan figures into the future breeding for sure.

Atreides a concept or bloodline at this point? The impact to the Imperium? well since its already been written by FH not a whole hell of a lot, just a discussion point.

Also haven't seen Freak post in while is he on vacation?

Kind of a vacation...

I cant really answer your breeding program question without spoiling GEoD and the following books for that matter. I'd be happy to PM about it or discuss it under the latter books.

[Freakzilla]

Revised, clean.

[Constan'kar]

Just finished reading Children of Dune and I'm slightly confused about the part where Leto renames Farad'n. He renames Farad'n as Harq al-Ada, meaning "Breaker of the Habit."

There are many instances where chapters in Dune and Dune Messiah begin with a pretext that says it was written after or before Harq al-Ada. Does that bear any significant meaning? Does that mean these pretexts were written after God Emperor dies?

[georgiedenbro]

Personally I have no idea. I'd have to re-read with that question in mind.

[howardhamlin]

Just finished reading Children of Dune and I'm slightly confused about the part where Leto renames Farad'n. He renames Farad'n as Harq al-Ada, meaning "Breaker of the Habit."

There are many instances where chapters in Dune and Dune Messiah begin with a pretext that says it was written after or before Harq al-Ada. Does that bear any significant meaning? Does that mean these pretexts were written after God Emperor dies?

The epigraphs in Children of Dune written by Harq al-Ada are actually penned by Farad'n - this is a pretty surprising reveal, I see this a mirror of Irulan's role in Dune. It's fascinating to think about how Children of Dune's plot mirrors many aspects of the first book.

I was really curious about your post because of my aforementioned fascination, so I took a look at my copies of the books to see if I could find any epigraphs written by Farad'n in those earlier works. I'm not seeing a single mention of Harq al-Ada in Dune or Dune Messiah.It looks to be the first appearance of our friend the scribe is in Chapter 2 of Children of Dune:

CHALLENGE: "Have you seen The Preacher?"
RESPONSE: "I have seen a sandworm."
CHALLENGE: "What about that sandworm?"
RESPONSE: "It gives us the air we breathe."
CHALLENGE: "Then why do we destroy its land?"
RESPONSE: "Because Shai-Hulud [sandworm defiled] orders it."
-Riddles of Arrakis by Harq al-Ada

I was able to find those "After Harq al-Ada" epigraphs though, they look to all be contained in Children of Dune as well. Here's the first appearance of one, in Chapter 11:

I hear the wind blowing across the desert and I see the moons of a winter night
rising like great ships in the void. To them I make my vow: I will be resolute
and make an art of government; I will balance my inherited past and become a
perfect storehouse of my relic memories. And I will be known for kindliness more
than for knowledge. My face will shine down the corridors of time for as long as
humans exist.
-Leto's Vow, After Harq al-Ada

At first blush, it can seem conclusively that these "After Harq al-Ada" epigraphs indicate a time period in which Leto II's reign is in full swing. One could read "After Harq al-Ada" to mean "After Farad'n has passed". I investigated further and found more interesting quotes with this epigraph style. Let's look at a few:

Church and State, scientific reason and faith, the individual and his community, even progress and tradition—all of these can be reconciled in the teachings of Muad’Dib. / The Preacher at Arrakeen, After Harq al-Ada

In this quote we can see The Preacher is speaking in this "After Harq al-Ada" epigraph. How can that be? We know he's dead by the time Farad'n is "hired" by Leto II. What gives?

After the Fremen, all Planetologists see life as expressions of energy and look for the overriding relationships. / The Arrakeen Catastrophe, After Harq al-Ada

There exists obvious higher-order influences in any planetary system. / The Dune Catastrophe, After Harq al-Ada

Oh man, now we have "After" the Fremen ... What could any of this mean? To be honest, what I thought was initially going to be a simple question has now given us a lot to think about. Let's try to break it down. We can read this a couple different ways - "After the Fremen", as in, "After the rise of the Fremen under the Jihad of Muad'dib", or we can take it as "After the Fremen are more-or-less gone (save the museum variety ). What exactly, also is "The Arakeen Catastrophe" and how does this related to "The Dune Catastrophe"?

There is no guilt or innocence in you. / Leto II to His Memory-Lives, After Harq al-Ada

So, these epigraphs are all over the place in terms of presentation. We have some that seem to be from Leto II himself during Leto II's reign, one from Paul himself who HAS to be dead by the time Leto II's reign starts, one that evidently is Leto II talking to his ancestral fan club, and some others that appear to be historical documents of terrible events that we may, or may not, already be aware of that have taken place on Arrakis.

If I'm going to put my speculation hat on, the only way this would make sense to me would be if these were from Leto II's records after he took over the scribe duties of Farad'n upon his mortal coil being shuffled. That would also explain Paul's presence as well as some of these oddities I've gone over.

I think I've given us a lot to chew on here. What do you guys think?

[Serkanner]

I have always thought the use of "after" in this way should be read as "according to" or "by" or "on account of".

[Cpt. Aramsham]

Yeah, "after" means "according to" or "based on." (It's often used of art, to indicate that a picture is a reproduction of an earlier piece.) Here it appears intended to suggest that the original work by Harq al-Ada has been lost, but the lines cited have been preserved as a quotation in some other work. In our world that's a very common situation for works from antiquity (many of which survive only in fragments quoted in other works), and that historical distance is probably the literary effect Frank Herbert aims to achieve for the chapter epigraphs. (He does something similar to a small extent in Dune, and goes to much greater lengths in God Emperor.)

[Constan'kar]

Sooooo. I've spent some time writing a Python program that analyzed every main post across all 6 books, providing me with every epigraph for Books 1, 2, and 3. You can find the full list of epigraphs and sayings at this link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IDg ... NlGbc/edit.

Here are some statistics:

Total mentions of the name Harq al-Ada: 21
Chapters with mentions: 2, 10, 11, 13, 14, 18, 21, 24, 42, 44, 46, 48, 53, 55, 56, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63


Chapter 02

Riddles of Arrakis by Harq al-Ada

Saying:

CHALLENGE: "Have you seen The Preacher?"
RESPONSE: "I have seen a sandworm."
CHALLENGE: "What about that sandworm?"
RESPONSE: "It gives us the air we breathe."
CHALLENGE: "Then why do we destroy its land?"
RESPONSE: "Because Shai-Hulud [sandworm deified] orders it."

Deep Take:
My interpretation of this "Riddle" is that Leto II ordered the Fremen to "destroy" the land since he is Shai-Hulud. Additionally, when the Challenge asks about the Preacher and the response is "I've seen a sandworm," it likely refers to Leto again. The Challenge’s confusion, "What about that sandworm?" and the response "It gives us air we breathe" might metaphorically suggest that Leto (the sandworm) allows us mere humans to exist in the presence of a God.

I'm considering whether it's wise to include every single chapter mention in the Chapter 64 discussion. If there are discussions where i can get more in depth please tell me. This topic might be quite extensive, as I've noticed that in "Dune," epigraphs are predominantly from Irulan (around 90%), while in "Messiah," they are more mixed, ranging from Fremen sayings to Tleilaxu epigrams. I didn't read GEoD yet, but I don't think its important since first 3 books are a trilogy.

Also if anybody is interested in my Python program DM me.