DUNE by:Frank Herbert illustrated by:SC -commentary

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 10 Mar 2008 19:08

Eh, I doubt EVERYONE will be satisfied. Whatever I come up with, however cool or right on it may seem to one person, will seem way off to another.

The best I can do is remain faithful to the novel. At least then regardless of our varied asthetic taste it can be agreed that it is still FH's DUNE

orald · Post by **orald** » 10 Mar 2008 19:22

And thus the lord 'Thopter-God spake: Though shalt not make a 'thopter in the un-likeness of my image.

Burn the 'thopter infidels!

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Mar 2008 20:00

They were often refered to as insect like, the one previously posted looks like a bird.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 10 Mar 2008 20:41

Freakzilla wrote:They were often refered to as insect like, the one previously posted looks like a bird.

True, but then the full name does evoke birds. IN Greek, at least.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Mar 2008 20:55

It implies to me that they fly with wings that beat up and down.

I've always imagened them looking like dragonflies:

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 10 Mar 2008 22:06

Freakzilla wrote:They were often refered to as insect like, the one previously posted looks like a bird.

Yeah, same here.

I can't find a good pic of the one from the Mini series, but it is a little more insect-like.

...And Simon, I'm sure that with your devotion to canon that it will be awsome...

orald · Post by **orald** » 11 Mar 2008 02:38

Miniseries being more insect-like? I'm very vague on partial memories of this miniseries, since I never watched it in full(too horrible IMO), but I remember their torsoes were nothing insectish and still looks quite like the Lynch one, perhaps more triangular than rectangular.
Lynch 'thopter:

Best I could find of a miniseries 'thopter:

Notice it's essentially just a less sqarish Lynch 'thopter, with bigger(yet still fixed

) wings.
The torso is about what a 'thopter should have though...if only they had a budget or brains to make flapping, scaled wings.

Sexy 'thopter?!

Made it a URL 'cause it's a bit big and...distracting.
http://www.ef-uk.net/models/aircraft-un ... gle-04.jpg
Now this is defeintely the best design I've seen!

Take the dragonfly, lop off its head(no need for another compartment to complecate things, the passengers are in the torso) and voila, you've got yourself a basic helicopter with wings.

It's curious, but I can't find any conclusive allusions of 'thopters to be insect-like.

Dune:
Supposed refrences to 'thopter being insect-like:

An unmarked ornithopter squatted nearby, humming softly on standby like a somnolent insect.

Notice it's the humming sound of the engines and electronics that compares it to an insect.

The smuggler's spice factory with its parent carrier and ring of drone ornithopters came over a lifting of dunes like a swarm of insects following its queen.

Looks better...or does it? Lets see another case of insects, shall we?

Paul nodded, maintaining the necessary silence, moved past the man and up the dune slope. At the crest, he glanced back, saw the troop scattering like a flight of insects, their robes fluttering.

Later on we can find a bit better, if not conclusive evidence, though these two merely copmpare to the "waiting to spring/pounce" feeling.
CoD:

A single ornithopter sat facing the far wall, crouched there like an insect waiting to spring.

HoD:

She kept her gaze on the 'thopter. It hovered in the distance, then returned to settle gently onto a patch of worm-smoothed sand nearby. She could smell the lubricants and the sickly acridity of the 'thopter's fuel.
The thing was a giant insect nestled on the sand, waiting to pounce upon her.

ChD:
The best evidence is only found here:

In a fragile mood, Odrade watched the 'thopters settle to the hard-glazed surface, wing fans folding back into pod sleeves -- each craft like a sleeping insect.
An insect designed in its own likeness by a mad robot.

This quote implies more of the wings being retractable and folding, probably like a beetle.
Notice the last line of the quote refers to the line above it for the "insect-like" look.

Other objects described as insect-like:
Dune:
Here we see a spice-factory compared to an insect(but a centi\milipede rather than flying):

A clattering sound lifted from the factory crawler below them. It turned on its treads like a giant insect, lumbered toward the rocks.

And nuk...Spice silos:

The design of the spice silos in the yard was as old as Rakis: oval tanks on tall legs, metal and plaz insects waiting stilt-legged to leap upon their prey.

In conclusion, I find the lack of evidence for 'thopters being really insect-like in appearance quite alarming considering this popular view of them as such.
The only mostly conclusive evidence comes from ChD, which might lead to thinking that, if indeed FH saw them as insect-like in appearance, he must've only developed this notion later on, in the final novel of the series.
In fact, given the name of this type of craft, ornithopter, the image that should come to mind is that of a rotor-less helicopter with wings, a bird-thopter.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 11 Mar 2008 04:07

Durring the spice harvesting tour, Paul gets out and manually cranks the wing fans back for jet assisted take-off.

I imagined them being variable sweep wings like on an F-14, F-111 or Mig-27.

orald · Post by **orald** » 11 Mar 2008 04:22

Yes, though quite a bit more manuverable than those of current jet fighters.

It's mentioned several times that they can, and should wisely be, retracted when using mostly the jets, such as when flying straight and fast(well, like modern jet fighters).
The fans are for extra lift in takeoff/landing and when carrying very heavy loads(the big troop carrier the Fremen destroy, Hawat sepcifically notes it must be packed with soldiers because it has its wings spread wide).

Post by **Freakzilla** » 11 Mar 2008 04:35

I imagined the wing "fans" to be the interleaved "feathers" like in the picture of the bird-like thopter.

FANMETAL: metal formed by the growing of jasmium crystals in duraluminum; noted
for extreme tensile strength in relationship to weight. Name derives from its
common use in collapsible structures that are opened by "fanning" them out.
~Dune, Terminology of the Imperium

orald · Post by **orald** » 11 Mar 2008 04:44

Sure, but the retraction function is still basically what fighter jets do today- lowering drag in high speads(plus given the descriptions and incidents when they break, I doubt it's wise to use them at great speeds).
When in use they're for finer manouvering and extra lift when there's no speed to give it.

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 11 Mar 2008 12:27

Aside from the really bizzare idea of the ornithopter as a rapid flapping wing machine (itself a cool if unrealistic sci-fi idea), I always felt that the ornithopters were simply winged machines similar to what we have today but far more advanced.

Most notably I envisioned variable geometry wings, but also variable surface wings, variable angle wings and variable cant wings. I see them as the ultimate evolution of the standard winged fighter but with the technology to resize, angle and swing the wings in numerous configurations, even in mid flight. The fans would be part of the VTOL systems and the wings could be moved to accomodate or assist them. The large degree of wing cant in particular would give reason for calling the machines "ornithopters." I envision the wings could cant vertically even 90 degrees or more in various configurations, such as landing. I can also envision them rotating, like rotating prop propeller planes and variable segment wings transports you see in the Ghost In The Shell movies and television series. Basically sci-fi, but within the realm of plausiblity and as advanced as you'd expect for a far future civilization that has shields, lasers, FTL and gravity generators.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 11 Mar 2008 21:38

GamePlayer wrote:I can also envision them rotating, like rotating prop propeller planes and variable segment wings transports you see in the Ghost In The Shell movies and television series. Basically sci-fi, but within the realm of plausiblity and as advanced as you'd expect for a far future civilization that has shields, lasers, FTL and gravity generators.

As I was reading your post I was thinking of the very bird-like one in Innocence, the one they take to Etorofu (Iturup) in the northern islands.

This is what you meant, too, right?

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 11 Mar 2008 22:44

orald wrote:Miniseries being more insect-like? I'm very vague on partial memories of this miniseries, since I never watched it in full(too horrible IMO), but I remember their torsoes were nothing insectish and still looks quite like the Lynch one, perhaps more triangular than rectangular.

I think the one from the Mini Children of Dune was more insect-like, but again, don't have a pic to show...

I'll look into it...

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 11 Mar 2008 23:06

SC
Perhaps something along the lines of the Transport from GITS 2 that you have pictured, but also think of the Sniping Helicopter from GITS and the Tilt-Rotor from the GITS Stand Alone Complex series. Basically it would have elements of all three along with variable geometry wing. So the ornithopter would have both vertical and horizontal wing movement as well as lateral wing rotation.

Now, if you'll forgive my awful drawing skills, here's a very simple guide to the four different wing structures that I envision in a Dune ornithopter:

Standard Wing Configuration

Variable Wing Cant

Variable Geometry Wing

Variable Wing Tilt

Of course I also mentioned a few other abilities like the ability to increase/decrease surface area to some degree and possibly multiple segments like the picture you posted above.

orald · Post by **orald** » 12 Mar 2008 06:40

That's all good and well, but no need to speculate, all these things are mentioned in the books.
They can change the shape, surface area, tilt and cant just like birds do, even better since their wings are retractable and can change the first 2 far more than real birds.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 13 Mar 2008 17:09

Freakzilla wrote:It implies to me that they fly with wings that beat up and down.

I've always imagened them looking like dragonflies:

Maybe someone will get a Dragon Fly Thopter in their stocking this
X-mas!

(I like this diagram, I will incorperate it into my next design)

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 13 Mar 2008 19:30

Simon wrote:(I like this diagram, I will incorperate it into my next design)

Oh dear...LEXX Meets Dune.

The WowWee site says Toys "R" Us carries the Dragonfly here in Japan.

Radio controlled. Kewl.

Rakis · Post by **Rakis** » 13 Mar 2008 23:03

Found this video showing the Thopter from CoD. Not different from the pic that Orald found, but looks better in motion; it has a slight beetle like appearance with a minor flaps on the wings :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjvH-_CgcI

orald · Post by **orald** » 14 Mar 2008 04:03

Like someone said in the comments, he's hot!

Err, no, I mean, like someone said in the comments, WTF 3 worms travel together without fighting? And I'll add: WTF does he go look at worms in mid-flight to Jessica(if that's where's they're going)? Or since when do they let 8 y-o's(oh no, he's like 18 here

) fly a 'thopter? And who hasn't given me the phone number for Irulan and Ghanima's actresses yet?

BTW, I haven't watched BSG for quite a while now, but doesn't the 'thopter remind you of the little communications vessel they always use? The one that Boomer was always in(yay Boomer

).

GamePlayer · Post by **GamePlayer** » 14 Mar 2008 10:33

Colonial Raptor. I suppose it's the polygonal cockpit glass that makes the two appear similar upon cursory examination. IMO, the Raptor is a far more interesting design and the style follows function better.

orald · Post by **orald** » 14 Mar 2008 10:57

Yea, I see what you mean. On the other hand, I haven't slept much and deliriums have been taking over my mind...maybe I'll go to sleep now like Mandy advises.

Tyrant · Post by **Tyrant** » 14 Mar 2008 15:15

Rakis wrote:Found this video showing the Thopter from CoD. Not different from the pic that Orald found, but looks better in motion; it has a slight beetle like appearance with a minor flaps on the wings :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfjvH-_CgcI

omg ghanima is smoking hot.. i about cream myself everytime i see the wedding dress scene (ok...went to far)

i also prefer the mini-series style sandworm..with only 2 sides at the mouth as opposed to the 3 .... the mini series ones look so bad ass

Fantômas · Post by **Fantômas** » 14 Mar 2008 15:40

Rakis wrote:omg ghanima is smoking hot.. i about cream myself everytime i see the wedding dress scene (ok...went to far)

No you did not. She is Sweet.

orald · Post by **orald** » 14 Mar 2008 15:45

Guys, guys, chill out, there are ladies around, watch your language.
Ladies, like uh...Mandy. Oh well...