Jessica
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- SandChigger
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Re: Jessica
Oh give me a fucking break.
No, there are no specific Abominations mentioned by name, but if you ACTUALLY READ the original books, it's rather clear that the BG have had experience with REAL EXAMPLES in the past.
Go find Baliset and see if he can come up with a list of famous Abominos from the DE.
No, there are no specific Abominations mentioned by name, but if you ACTUALLY READ the original books, it's rather clear that the BG have had experience with REAL EXAMPLES in the past.
Go find Baliset and see if he can come up with a list of famous Abominos from the DE.
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- Redstar
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Re: Jessica
Baliset added me on MSN and I still have no idea why.
(And on-topic; I can buy the "She's a Missionaria Protectiva adept" explanation. The BG should have just handled things a bit better in who they used)
(And on-topic; I can buy the "She's a Missionaria Protectiva adept" explanation. The BG should have just handled things a bit better in who they used)
- E. LeGuille
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Re: Jessica
Why is it when I ask a question, you have to take it to task to beat me over the head with it? I have not read Heretics and Chapterhouse. And It has been a while since DUNE, so I did not remember there being something, so I figured maybe if there was mention of it having happened, Frank said somethnig somewhere about it.SandChigger wrote:Oh give me a fucking break.
No, there are no specific Abominations mentioned by name, but if you ACTUALLY READ the original books, it's rather clear that the BG have had experience with REAL EXAMPLES in the past.
Go find Baliset and see if he can come up with a list of famous Abominos from the DE.
So I asked.
Long Live the Fighters.
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Re: Jessica
Well ... why discussing anything with you when you haven't read the books? So when you do ask questions its perfectly legit to stump your head for it BECAUSE you haven't read the books. It makes you look like an idiot.E. LeGuille wrote:Why is it when I ask a question, you have to take it to task to beat me over the head with it? I have not read Heretics and Chapterhouse. And It has been a while since DUNE, so I did not remember there being something, so I figured maybe if there was mention of it having happened, Frank said somethnig somewhere about it.SandChigger wrote:Oh give me a fucking break.
No, there are no specific Abominations mentioned by name, but if you ACTUALLY READ the original books, it's rather clear that the BG have had experience with REAL EXAMPLES in the past.
Go find Baliset and see if he can come up with a list of famous Abominos from the DE.
So I asked.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
- Mandy
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Re: Jessica
No, you're right. They never mention anyone specifically by name, but it is implied in Mohiam's reaction to Alia in Dune. They'd need to experience it firsthand to be so afraid of it, don't you think? It just wasn't important to the story to explore previous instances, or FH would have written them in. I don't have my copy of Children of Dune handy, but I know Leto and Ghanima discussed the abomination problem before they played the mother/father game. I'll look it up tomorrow.E. LeGuille wrote:Woah, that makes me wonder now: Are there ever any mentions of this happening before? Because before Alia, I don't remember there being an abomination specifically mentioned? Perhaps it was more a theory among the sisterhood, but what other methods would there have been to cause an abomination?Mandy wrote:And a drug as soon as she drank some.Freakzilla wrote:She did recognize it as poison as soon as she smelled it, though.Mandy wrote:I know, that's why I said she didn't know what WoL was.SandChigger wrote:I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.
After thinking about this a little more, I imagine that Jessica did know about the risks of "passing within" while preggo. Perhaps the BG's ritual is kept secret from the uninitiated, and she certainly didn't know what the Fremen ritual would consist of, but horror stories about "abominations" should be known by everyone (in the BG), especially someone as well connected as Jessica. Mohiam's reaction the first time she laid eyes on Alia was pretty dramatic, and her words lead me to believe that Jessica probably did know and chose to go through with it anyway. Kinda makes her abandonment of Alia even worse.
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- Leto
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Re: Jessica
Regarding Abominations case, I remember a scene in CoD when Alia "prevents" the Twin about "what they (the Sisterhood) do to the ones like us" which means the preborn have existed since the BG foundation.
Regarding Jessica's knowledge, it's never mentionned clearly. During its discussion with Mohiam, it is said she disobeyed the order, and I remember (I haven't my books around) Mohiam reacts haughtily ("do you were proud of yourself enough to believe you might bear the KH". Do not forgive the fact that there were some men Gom Jabbardized before Paul ("they tried and all died"), included Fenring.
So, Jessica probably didn't know all about this, but she loved her Duke enough to desobey an order (have a girl) and proud enough to test her son.
Furthermore, if she knew her accurate role in this, she would have not wait more than 15/16 years (from Paul's birth to Alia's) to bear the supposed mother of the KH.
So, according to me, she didn't know who she supposed to be. But her love for her Duke and her pride drove her to bear Paul instead of Alia.
Regarding Jessica's knowledge, it's never mentionned clearly. During its discussion with Mohiam, it is said she disobeyed the order, and I remember (I haven't my books around) Mohiam reacts haughtily ("do you were proud of yourself enough to believe you might bear the KH". Do not forgive the fact that there were some men Gom Jabbardized before Paul ("they tried and all died"), included Fenring.
So, Jessica probably didn't know all about this, but she loved her Duke enough to desobey an order (have a girl) and proud enough to test her son.
Furthermore, if she knew her accurate role in this, she would have not wait more than 15/16 years (from Paul's birth to Alia's) to bear the supposed mother of the KH.
So, according to me, she didn't know who she supposed to be. But her love for her Duke and her pride drove her to bear Paul instead of Alia.
Last edited by Leto on 27 Sep 2009 17:26, edited 1 time in total.
- SandChigger
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Re: Jessica
Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
- redbugpest
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Re: Jessica
That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.
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- SandChigger
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Re: Jessica
Apeseed?redbugpest wrote:That would have only apeseed them ....SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
I'm sorry, but you've shown yourself to be pretty much ignorant when it comes to things both Dune and even McDune, and since your insights rarely go beyond the shallowly obvious, as here, thanks but no thanks.Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that [snip]
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- SadisticCynic
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Re: Jessica
1st point: Good pest! (Except for SP.)redbugpest wrote:That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.
2nd point: No. Jessica gave in to the instinctive to produce life when in danger of soon losing her own. She mentions this specifically in Dune. What you prefer has no bearing on this one. In fact, the first point you made is probably why Jessica wasn't ordered (as far as we know) to immediately have another child. Having their precious genes spread about was likely something the Sisterhood didn't want (until they were out of their hands of course, then they wanted them badly enough).
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Re: Jessica
WRONG!redbugpest wrote:That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.
Paul and Jessica in the desert:
This is the way it had to be, Leto, she thought. "A time of love and a time
of grief." She rested her hand on her abdomen, awareness focused on the embryo
there. I have the Atreides daughter I was ordered to produce, but the Reverend
Mother was wrong: a daughter wouldn't have saved my Leto. This child is only
life reaching for the future in the midst of death. I conceived out of instinct
and not out of obedience.
"... the mystery of life isn't a problem to solve but a reality to experience."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
“There is no escape—we pay for the violence of our ancestors.”
Sandrider: "Keith went to Bobo's for a weekend of drinking, watched some DVDs,
and wrote a Dune Novel."
- redbugpest
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Re: Jessica
I stand corrected on that point.Serkanner wrote:WRONG!redbugpest wrote:That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.
Paul and Jessica in the desert:
This is the way it had to be, Leto, she thought. "A time of love and a time
of grief." She rested her hand on her abdomen, awareness focused on the embryo
there. I have the Atreides daughter I was ordered to produce, but the Reverend
Mother was wrong: a daughter wouldn't have saved my Leto. This child is only
life reaching for the future in the midst of death. I conceived out of instinct
and not out of obedience.
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- SadisticCynic
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Re: Jessica
That's what I was thinking of.Serkanner wrote:WRONG!redbugpest wrote:That would have only apeseed them in regards to preserving the bloodline, so it could still be crossed the Harkonnens. There would still have been concerns and questions about what Paul was and what to do with him.SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
Of course, had Jessica produced a female at any other point, the whole storyline would be changed. I prefer to think that Jessica had finally given in to BG pressure when she became pregnant with Alia.
Paul and Jessica in the desert:
This is the way it had to be, Leto, she thought. "A time of love and a time
of grief." She rested her hand on her abdomen, awareness focused on the embryo
there. I have the Atreides daughter I was ordered to produce, but the Reverend
Mother was wrong: a daughter wouldn't have saved my Leto. This child is only
life reaching for the future in the midst of death. I conceived out of instinct
and not out of obedience.
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
- Nekhrun
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Re: Jessica
It's been getting worse hasn't it?SandChigger wrote:Apeseed?redbugpest wrote:That would have only apeseed them ....SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
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- SandChigger
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Re: Jessica
Oh, whatever!
I get this Jason & the Argonauts stop-action animation vibe, only instead of skeleton warriors when you sow the dragon's teeth, you get fuzzy preeq monkeys running amok and flinging poopoos.
(Yes, I have been asleep and dreamt in Technicolor. )
I get this Jason & the Argonauts stop-action animation vibe, only instead of skeleton warriors when you sow the dragon's teeth, you get fuzzy preeq monkeys running amok and flinging poopoos.
(Yes, I have been asleep and dreamt in Technicolor. )
"Let the dead give water to the dead. As for me, it's NO MORE FUCKING TEARS!"
- Leto
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Re: Jessica
Yes, it would (I guess)!SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
That's why she cannot be acknowledged about her role : how could she threat such a "beautiful" program whereas bearing a girl was so simple?! Hugh, it would be unbelievable... she could be aware of her role...
- SandChigger
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Re: Jessica
At least not initially.
(And who are you calling "Hugh"? )
(And who are you calling "Hugh"? )
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Re: Jessica
SandChigger wrote:Hey, Leto, there's an interesting point: why didn't Jessica go ahead and have another child, a girl, after Paul? That would have shut the BG up, no?
Yeah I was thinking that too, but then I saw a quote in another thread that said the BG had ordered her to have only daughters. So I think it was having a son at all that upset them.
- Harq al Ada
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Re: Jessica
I thought Irulan didn't get the greater training because she wasn't as bright or naturally gifted.lotek wrote:Irulan received a lighter BG training and she was the daughter of the Emperor, she probaby wouldn't have survived a wild Agony like Jessica did.
She new it was a poison though and that it would cause an abomination. Poison is a part of the passage into other memories. And the Fremen had a Reverend Mother. She's a bright woman.Freakzilla wrote:But what Mandy said is basically right, Jessica didn't realize what it was until it was litterally right under her nose.SandChigger wrote:I don't think any of the BG knew what WoL was. Wasn't it a Fremen secret?Mandy wrote:She didn't even know what the WoL was, and she had no idea what it would do to her or Alia.
Ooow, I know! Maybe as another little FU BG she decided she'd continue her heretical ways by creating an abomination as well as the more than KH. Take that!
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