Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
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- Sandwurm88
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Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
This is just a quick question, that I'm a bit fuzzy on.
Why do the Bene Gesserits test how human a person is just by observing them through pain/ seeing how much pain they can take? It seems like a big, dumb ripped guy could take more pain than maybe a scrawny, but extremely emotionally steady intellectual.
Okay, guys, make me look stupid!!
(I don't need much help )
Why do the Bene Gesserits test how human a person is just by observing them through pain/ seeing how much pain they can take? It seems like a big, dumb ripped guy could take more pain than maybe a scrawny, but extremely emotionally steady intellectual.
Okay, guys, make me look stupid!!
(I don't need much help )
- Redstar
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
I'm 5' 9" and 120 lbs and a BD-sadomasochist.
- othaderak
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
/threadRedstar wrote:I'm 5' 9" and 120 lbs and a BD-sadomasochist.
Also, TMI
- Redstar
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
Too much information, too much exaggeration.
- trang
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
simply answered by excerpt from Dune (not exact dont have book in front of me) when Reverend Mother giving Paul his test.
Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam uses a gom jabbar to test Paul Atreides just prior to his departure to Arrakis. This "humanity test" is carried out with a box that produces pain by nerve induction, causing pain that is intense and severe but strictly psychological. Only a human is considered to be able to possess the self-discipline to withstand this pain and resist the urge to take their hand out of the box. A person who withdraws their hand is stung with the gom jabbar, causing instant death.
Has nothing to due with physical prowess or lack of, its brain and self-discipline.
Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam uses a gom jabbar to test Paul Atreides just prior to his departure to Arrakis. This "humanity test" is carried out with a box that produces pain by nerve induction, causing pain that is intense and severe but strictly psychological. Only a human is considered to be able to possess the self-discipline to withstand this pain and resist the urge to take their hand out of the box. A person who withdraws their hand is stung with the gom jabbar, causing instant death.
Has nothing to due with physical prowess or lack of, its brain and self-discipline.
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- redbugpest
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
It's about resisting basic instincts. A human will be able to leave the hand in the box because they can reason out that, knowing it is a test, that they really are not being physically hurt, and that the instinctual fear response needs to be suppressed to achieve the goal.
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- Redstar
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
Can't recall where I read it, but it was said an animal will gnaw it's foot off to escape, whereas a true human will feign weakness to both escape and kill the hunter.
- SimonH
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
I thought a major part of this was determining if the person was possessed by OM?? Like the Fremen's trial of possession
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- SandChigger
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
Huh?Redstar wrote:Can't recall where I read it, but it was said an animal will gnaw it's foot off to escape, whereas a true human will feign weakness to both escape and kill the hunter.
Try Dune, the "Paul's hand in Mohiam's box" passage:
The old woman said; "You've heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap? There's an animal kind of trick. A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind."
Last edited by SandChigger on 28 Oct 2009 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
- TheDukester
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
Yeah, you're rolling tonight. A real pistol.
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- Redstar
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
Yeah, I'm just lame.
- lotek
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
The BGs don't test just any person at random, Paul goes through it because he might be a KH or a wild card in the breeding program and his potential power must be balanced by his being human in the BG definition.Sandwurm88 wrote:Why do the Bene Gesserits test how human a person is just by observing them through pain/ seeing how much pain they can take? It seems like a big, dumb ripped guy could take more pain than maybe a scrawny, but extremely emotionally steady intellectual.
I guess that test is given only to people who have that kind of potential power but I don't remember any mention of other people being tested in such a fashion(the only thing related that i remember is the use of pain by nerve induction as a form of torture by Piter de Vries)
As for the capacity to resist pain through the mind I don't think it has to do with size for two reasons:
- the BG wouldn't be so stupid to test for humans on a physical basis(paul resists the urge to remove his hand with the help of the Litany, nothing to do with physical prowess)
- the level of pain in the box can be adapted to the person(Paul takes more than anyone else before, which indicates the level of pain is irrelevant as such, it is the person's limits that are tested not just a pain contest)
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- trang
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
others are tested for the breeding program, humans found to move forward with reaching the KH.
"Long Live the Fighters", "Dragon.....the other white meat."
- lotek
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
are there any quotes that show the use of the test(with or without the box)on someone else than Paul?trang wrote:others are tested for the breeding program, humans found to move forward with reaching the KH.
Obviously it makes sense to check on every part of the BP to make sure the superhuman is indeed human, but as the program is kind of secret they would need to find an acceptable reason for that without giving away their true motives.
In Paul's case there is no need for secrecy since Jessica is fully aware of her role in the program, but for example is there any evidence that Feyd-Rautha was tested too?
Would Lady's Fenring Imprinting count?
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And the BG test for humans, not super strong guys who don't feel pain, it is the result of the observation through the test that determines if the candidate is truly human.
The question would be what does it mean to be human, and can it be defined by something as variable as resiliance to pain? It would be more in character for the BG to find deeper definitions of humanity that depend only on who the person is, regardless of her physical strength.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
The Fremen knew about the Gom Jabbar.
No, I wouldn't count Feyd-Rautha's imprinting.
No, I wouldn't count Feyd-Rautha's imprinting.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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- Freakzilla
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
Of course, Leto's "worm trip" and Namri's knife count as a Gom Jabbar.
I want to say Jessica was tested but I can't back that up right now.
I want to say Jessica was tested but I can't back that up right now.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- lotek
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
This might come as a silly question but is there a mention that women are tested like men?Freakzilla wrote:Of course, Leto's "worm trip" and Namri's knife count as a Gom Jabbar.
I want to say Jessica was tested but I can't back that up right now.
SInce the BG as a SIsterhood has the Agony to weed out the unprepared, would they need to test their breeders in the same fashion as men?
edit: thank you google I just found the complete dune pdfs to provide that quote:
slightly different from what I remembered(No man born of a woman)"Kull Wahad! No woman child ever withstood that much"
It could just mean Paul suffered more than any woman could have, or that the test for men and women is different at least in intensity.
All men who have tried the Agony died, but the KH as the fulcrum can tap into both sides of human nature, and as such transcends their capacities, so it makes sense that Paul blows the score on the humanity test when you know he will survive the Water of Life.
Yup I didn't think so, but then since he's a part of the BP he would need to be tested wouldn't he?Freakzilla wrote:The Fremen knew about the Gom Jabbar.
No, I wouldn't count Feyd-Rautha's imprinting.
In the Atreides case approaching the ducal heir with poison was possible, but how would you do that with the Harkonnens?
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- SandChigger
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
That's not an assumption I'd make. They don't need him, just his genetic material.lotek wrote:Yup I didn't think so, but then since he's a part of the BP he would need to be tested wouldn't he?Freakzilla wrote:No, I wouldn't count Feyd-Rautha's imprinting.
I've always just assumed the Harkonnens were all animals.
- lotek
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
you're right about Feyd though, there is that quote from Lady Fenring(i think)that says something about how Feyd could have become a different person with the Atreides education, suggesting that their "animal trait" is not hereditary... so there would be no need to test him if he has no KH potential to make the animal side a hasard.SandChigger wrote:That's not an assumption I'd make. They don't need him, just his genetic material.lotek wrote:Yup I didn't think so, but then since he's a part of the BP he would need to be tested wouldn't he?Freakzilla wrote:No, I wouldn't count Feyd-Rautha's imprinting.
I've always just assumed the Harkonnens were all animals.
So what would be the basis for that test?
Only people with a KH potential would be tested?
That would make the numbers of candidates pretty low(only KJA needs to multiply his KHs) no?
What do you make of Mohiam's quote I mentionned?
And before I go any further I should clear the doubt "no woman child" means a "child woman" or the "child of a woman"?"Kull Wahad! No woman child ever withstood that much"
Do the BG test girls in the same fashion or is that sentence just a reference to the Agony, which is a truly excruciating experience?
Spice is the worm's gonads.
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
I believe all BG acolytes are tested. You wouldn't want to give those kinds of skills to someone who is inhuman:
In the dim light of the museum penthouse, Odrade held up her right hand, looking
at it, remembering the agony box, and the gom jabbar poised at her neck ready to
kill her if she flinched or cried out.
In the dim light of the museum penthouse, Odrade held up her right hand, looking
at it, remembering the agony box, and the gom jabbar poised at her neck ready to
kill her if she flinched or cried out.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- SandChigger
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
I don't think there is any "animal trait" involved, nor anything like a "human gene". Any individual could turn out to be an animal if the genetic roulette wheel spun the wrong way or he or she were raised in the right (=the wrong) environment ... that's why even Paul, despite his genes & upbringing, had to be tested.lotek wrote:there is that quote from Lady Fenring(i think)that says something about how Feyd could have become a different person with the Atreides education, suggesting that their "animal trait" is not hereditary...
"Woman child" means a girl child, a female.And before I go any further I should clear the doubt "no woman child" means a "child woman" or the "child of a woman"?
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Re: Question About BGs in Dune, Pre-Dune
SandChigger wrote:I don't think there is any "animal trait" involved, nor anything like a "human gene". Any individual could turn out to be an animal if the genetic roulette wheel spun the wrong way or he or she were raised in the right (=the wrong) environment ... that's why even Paul, despite his genes & upbringing, had to be tested.lotek wrote:there is that quote from Lady Fenring(i think)that says something about how Feyd could have become a different person with the Atreides education, suggesting that their "animal trait" is not hereditary...
i do not believe in any way there is a animal gene, which is why I used the word trait(hope I got it right). There is definitely a KH gene though, so the idea of other characteristics being hereditary, especially with gene lines bred for that purpose by the BG_all that in context of the Duniverse, does not seem so absurd to me
Isn't there some reference to Atreides honor being inevitable in them, almost like a genetic characteristic? Wouldn't the opposite apply to the Harkonnens which are the antithesis of the Atreides, making them equals each in his own respect?
"Woman child" means a girl child, a female.And before I go any further I should clear the doubt "no woman child" means a "child woman" or the "child of a woman"?
all right thanks
that's what I thought but you never know with those writers that have more culture than you... which is why preeqs luuuuvv their hack
nice, thanks for the quote...Freakzilla wrote:I believe all BG acolytes are tested. You wouldn't want to give those kinds of skills to someone who is inhuman:
yeah just like you would not give the KH's power to an inhuman it makes so much sense I'm ashamed I didn't find out by myself i focused on the powers of a RM and forgot that even acolytes already learn potentially dangerous stuff too
In the dim light of the museum penthouse, Odrade held up her right hand, looking
at it, remembering the agony box, and the gom jabbar poised at her neck ready to
kill her if she flinched or cried out.
Spice is the worm's gonads.