Smellhole Notes.

[Kojiro]

There was also that bullshit about the machine fleet in Sadworms using "lightspeed engines", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. (KJA evidently thought it meant FTL.) If Omnius wasn't afraid of spacefolding, the machines could have appeared over every human planet and wiped out the entire species in one swell FOOP!

Didn't the Golden Path ensure that we never had to worry about robots designed by Ix would destroy humanity, that we'd be too widespread to face extinction? Oh right, because KJA is an idiot and never closely read Frank's books, thus Marty and Daniel the facedancers become ancient robots from a Saturday morning cartoon plot and the Golden Path is revealed as a sham. Oh, how I'd love to shiv him in a dark alley.

[A Thing of Eternity]

There's a post at DN (and archived at T(A)U I think) where I write practically a whole essay about how the engines in the Legends series are bad from not just a science point of view, but also from a fiction point of view.

[Hunchback Jack]

Ah by planetary shadow I mean the sensor shadow created by a giant orb of rock which makes it a perfect place to hide things.

Oh, okay. My bad. If were the actual planetary shadow, I think even KJA's fanboys would have picked up on it.

Edited to add:

but Keith is just so bad, I can't get past some of the sample chapters he's posted; some of the paragraphs quoted here I can't
even finish; I can only take a few of the sample sentences Amp is de-constructing in this thread at a time ...

Yeah, likewise, with KJA's writing anyway. And Amp described it pretty well - there no immersion at all. From the first few paragraphs, I'm bored. I don't care. There's just stuff being written at me, and I'm reading words but not taking part in the story.

Compare any opening chapter of his to this:

“This one might be trouble.”

She heard one of them say this, only ten or so metres away in the darkness. Even over her fear, the sheer naked terror of being hunted, she felt a shiver of excitement, of something like triumph, when she realised they were talking about her.

Not a perfect opening passage, but not bad at all. That's Banks, by the way.

(I'm enjoying Amp's summaries, tho.)

HBJ

[SandChigger]

Didn't the Golden Path ensure that we never had to worry about robots designed by Ix would destroy humanity, that we'd be too widespread to face extinction? Oh right, because KJA is an idiot and never closely read Frank's books, thus Marty and Daniel the facedancers become ancient robots from a Saturday morning cartoon plot and the Golden Path is revealed as a sham.

Except that in "Dune 7", the machine forces have "englobed" The Scattering. I guess that means completely surrounded. Which is pretty damned impressive for ships that are moving at FTL speeds. But then, they seem to have missed the memo that even Leto's empire was "multigalactic".

And yeah, KJA had to tear down Leto and his Golden Path, since he & it were among FH's greatest creations.

Oh, how I'd love to shiv him in a dark alley.

We could probably do without that kind of comment. There are stupid people who read this board just watching for stuff like that. (Remember that KJASF asshat Dilly Pickle's claims that someone had threatened KJA and his family's lives? )

[Kojiro]

Didn't the Golden Path ensure that we never had to worry about robots designed by Ix would destroy humanity, that we'd be too widespread to face extinction? Oh right, because KJA is an idiot and never closely read Frank's books, thus Marty and Daniel the facedancers become ancient robots from a Saturday morning cartoon plot and the Golden Path is revealed as a sham.

Except that in "Dune 7", the machine forces have "englobed" The Scattering. I guess that means completely surrounded. Which is pretty damned impressive for ships that are moving at FTL speeds. But then, they seem to have missed the memo that even Leto's empire was "multigalactic".

Impressive indeed considering space is BIG and there's plenty of room to move around in. Especially when fold-space is the method of travel.

And yeah, KJA had to tear down Leto and his Golden Path, since he & it were among FH's greatest creations.

What exactly was the excuse he gave on this issue anyway?

Oh, how I'd love to shiv him in a dark alley.

We could probably do without that kind of comment. There are stupid people who read this board just watching for stuff like that. (Remember that KJASF asshat Dilly Pickle's claims that someone had threatened KJA and his family's lives? )

It still doesn't change the seething rage and hate I feel toward the man. What he's basically done is doodle on a Picasso, thinking he has "improved" it when in fact he has defaced art. I doubt in reality I could even muster standing in the same room with him without becoming violently sick and puke everything inside my gut.

[JustSomeGuy]

It still doesn't change the seething rage and hate I feel toward the man. What he's basically done is doodle on a Picasso, thinking he has "improved" it when in fact he has defaced art. I doubt in reality I could even muster standing in the same room with him without becoming violently sick and puke everything inside my gut.

This reminds me of something that happened to a friend of mine. The guy's an artist. Not a professional artist, and not a Picasso, but God-gifted nonetheless.

I remember visiting him one evening and noticing a large drawing he was working on. It was a Chinese-style dragon that seemed to be flying at you- it looked like it was gonna break out of the paper he was working on. It looked great. I mean, I knew he was talented, but ¡man! that work was inspired. I'd never seen anything quite like it.

Well, an other friend visited that evening. We were all sitting around talking, and at some point she wandered off. The next I saw of her was when I turned around looking for her, wondering where she was. Well, she was working on the dragon. She had drawn a multi-colored beanie on the thing's head- it was bright neon colors with a diamond pattern.

I could hardly believe it. I just nudged my friend and said his name. He didn't really get mad or anything, but the look on his face said it all.

The girl couldn't see what the big deal was at first, but I think she got it eventually. She never did something like that again, that I know of.

I still remember that dragon, and how awesome it looked. The thing is, I can't picture it in my mind's eye without also seeing that stupid-ass beanie sitting atop it's head.

That's what BH/KJA have done to Dune. You know what I mean. Oh, and they're not sorry. Matter of fact, they think I'm/you're the bad guy for calling them on their shit.

We live in a fucked-up, shitty-ass world.

I'm in a bad mood now.

[Ampoliros]

I guess we'll have to add a beanie onto the bear-shaped meteor.


Which btw is the proper retribution to pray for. Omph cleared it for us:

"Your Honor, these jackasses threatened the life of KJA and his family!"

"Defendants, Is this true?"

"Well...kinda?"

"Plantiff, will you tell the court what you accuse the defendants of threatening?"

"Yeah, they organized a bunch of agnostics, atheists, and a few religious types to pray for a Giant Bear-Shaped Meteor to come down and crush KJA and his dicta-corder!"

"Defendants, Do you deny this charge?"

"Yes your honor. They forgot that the bear was wearing a beanie."

"..........Case dismissed."

[Robspierre]

Amp, you could point out that the cover actually matches the description of why Hellhole is such a brutal place to live, which makes having vineyards stand out even more.

Rob

[Kojiro]

Where are the vineyards on the cover anyway? Since they seem so important to the plot, they should be there.

Although I guess a vineyard in the middle of a wasteland doesn't seem quite as dramatic as what Keith and BoBo were going for.

[Ampoliros]

No, I'm pretty sure Conway came to check out what was going on here after realizing he had no idea what was wrong with the vineyards. The argument broke down after that. I think my Jersey shore comment might have been too much but hey, I consider this work important to furthering the advancement of humanity, if only in a small manner.

[Ampoliros]

It's Hackin' time again!

Pg 174
-"Be the General" MFLF's advice before the meeting of rebel leaders.
-12 Planets of the Deep Zone's 54 are represented.
-when we last left off, we were in the middle of NAH! showing off his plan to build a second stringline hub to counter the one already in operation.
-Capt Jack Solo's iperion shipment, send by FTL ship, arrived at practically the same time as PA2. They left within hours, probably days of each other, yet Capt. Jack Solo and PA2 arrive at practically the same time. Here's where a map might be really nice to have, because that means that Hellhole and Ridgetop can't be more than a week and a half (at most) apart by FTL speeds (meaning probably about 4-8 days travel through the stringline hub.) This helps justify somewhat the idea that Hellhole is pretty well equipped, since Ridgetop is fairly well off: They can get resources through Capt' Jack Solo's black market just as quickly as they could from through the hub.
-FTL fuel costs are much larger than the stringliners
-I still don't think it completely justifies the simply massive amounts of resources they are using to fulfill their plan.
-As you will see this is a minor nitpick rather than a hole in the plan. It has plenty of those which are glossed over.

-NAH!'s plan is to secretly build the entire stringline network and get it operational, linking all 54 planets of the Deep Zone through the Hellhole hub, before anyone catches wind of it.
-To do so, he has secretly obtained 53 Trailblazer craft, the deep space FTL ships that lay out the iperion markers.
-He has secretly outfitted those 53 ships with weeks or months worth of supplies and fuel. (crew is only 1 or 2 people though)
-Most of them are already on their way, sending off the longer path ships first, timed intricately so that all 53 ships will arrive at their destination and set up the end node docking ring before anyone can do anything about it.
-The day they are all scheduled to arrive is called D-Day, or Destination Day.

-Oh, and this might be important also, I mentioned 12 of the planets were in on the deal:
Co-conspirator:"We've still got to convince the other forty-two to join us. They may not be too happy we've painted them into a corner like this"
NAH!: "We've already got operatives and sympathizers on each of those planets, planting seeds, preparing for forceful action if necessary"

-So NAH! won't fire on civilian packed ships to end a war, but will start a "Forceful" political revolution on a planet which may or may not want to join him.
-Well heck, since he's already sent off the ships, he needs to guarantee a return on that investment.

-The authors did catch one thing: the irony that the thing the rebels hate the most, Sonjeera's control of the stringline hub. NAH! mentions that the Hellhole hub is just the first of many, so that all the DZ planets will have hubs eventually.

Here's where I have to take another break and discuss another hole in 'the plan'

-Hellhole is the most dramatically fitting choice for location of the hub. One, its the title planet, Two NAH! is there, and this is his plan. And that's about it. Hellhole requires the most work to make the least amount of resources viable. (y'know, those CGI background storms.)
Hellhole is the worst practical choice for location of the hub: Two other planets, and one specifically, are the best choices for the new hub for a very specific reason.
1st is PA2's planet, which is the source of the spice. I mean Iperion. That's what I meant.
2nd, is Capt' Jack Solo's planet, which is the BEST choice, for a facepalming obvious reason.

All three planets, Ridgetop, Hallholme, and Buktu (Capt' Jack Solo's planet) seem to be close enough to form that nice FTL triangle where ships can get one from the other in the same amount of time as the stringliners would take.

1 The DMD keeps sending nosy spies to Hellhole.
2 as above, PA2's planet is the source of the iperion needed to build the stringline paths.

-Well except for Buktu, because the DMD in her infinite wisdom cut it out of the stringline network.
-Which is why CJS put together his little FTL fleet and makes his living as a black marketeer, because no one ever goes to his planet anymore.
-Which kind of makes it the perfect place to hide something you don't want a massive fleet of angry enemy warships to jump in, blow away, and then jump out, leaving you shit outta luck.

-And of course, there is no discussion at all (yet) of how they will defend themselves against DMD's assault.

Going to speed up, since most of the setup is done and there are fewer hiccups and more plodding from here on out.

Chapter 29
-we're back to Bishop Fenring again.
-His mousy assistant has a crush on him!
-She promises him some great new info she dug up, if he will kiss her.
"' I'm not going to sleep with you, (Margot)'...'I asked for a kiss, nothing more' " (I'm sure it has nothing to do with catering to mouth-breathers that it's the women in these books begging for sex...)
-WOW (Margot's) info says that Bishop Fenring's family used to be a noble family, and long ago they were stripped of their holdings until a dramatically appropriate time, such as when someone just happened to be writing a trilogy in this universe!
-He can claim his noble status whenever he wants! "A real nobleman! He could hardly believe it." (pg 186)
-So then he fucks her after she reveals she's already taken out one person on their list of revenge.
-Oh yeah, I forgot, Fenring makes a list of all the noble families that helped steal his rightful holdings seven hundred years ago. QUE THE MYSTERIOUS ASSASSIN FAMILY!

Chapter 30
Pg 187-188
(Someone alert Chris Carter that someone is about to rip off a major X-files arch)
-"The pond appeared utterly placid, but viscous, like a pearlescent tar pit; an oily sheen swirled and reflected indistinct shapes..."
-F! messes around with the alien pool, then falls in.
-F! almost drowns, but pulls himself out. Vince notices:"the gelatinous liquid crawled over F!, clinging, trying to pull him back into the pool...Vincent was amazed to see that F!'s eyes were covered with a turbulent opalescence, apparently blind."
-F! says he's seeing things, the history of the planet, aliens etc, then he's wracked with convulsions...CLIFFHANGER!

-Okay so its not Black Oil. Because Black Oil is evil. Slickwater is good. Kinda. It only kills one person and puts some few others in a coma . But not F!. We're not rid of him for a while. (the vast majority of pilgrims to the pools gain another alien personality)

Chapter 31
-Ant and Devon find the religious fanatics camp. They are all dead. Killed by swarms of Ultra-beetles who can chew through the trakmaster's metal hull. Run Ant! Run Devon! They run, They get away.

Chapter 32
-Keanu bitches to her mom that its unfair to arrest Louis.
"His only real crime was loving me!"
-Keanu tries to hire a mean old lawyer who treats her like a child and tells her appealing Louis' case would be pointless and without merit. Because it is.
-Of course, its all going to be a show trial, because the DMD has already ordered the judges to find him guilty. She tells Keanu this to her face.
" 'I love Louis---can't you understand that? Please. If you grant him clemency, I will do whatever you want!' She realized she sounded like a whining child, but didn't care"
(DMD:)"All right, something more lenient might be arranged...exile to the Deep Zone"
-now to be fair, DMD arranges something alright, but when you first read this it sounds utterly pathetic.
-I might also mention now that the book never mentions Keanu's age or description. Louis is late middle-aged, DMD is 92 iirc. (Very Old) Keanu by her actions seems to be 12. So I guess we can add charges of pedophilia to Louis' crimes.
-Keanu goes to see Louis in jail, finds him in the bathtub with his wrists slit. (It does mention that he's in a wing of the jail reserved for upper-class and noble criminals)
-The medic finds a suicide note, but doesn't show it to Keanu because its evidence.
-Keanu cries and refuses to believe Louis would kill himself.

I had to give them a rare +1 because I didn't see this coming after DMD apparently caved into Keanu's crying little bitch session. I offered another +1 in the event that he did actually kill himself. But no, it was of course THE MYSTERIOUS ASSASSIN! (actually on orders to do this, so its not rightly one of his revenge kills)

Chapter 33
-Christophe in disbelief at his family fortunes. Salvages as much as he can before The Black Lord's minions take over his holdings.
-The Black Lord's minions also wear black. In case you weren't sure. It's kind of his thing.
-Christophe flees to the Deep Zone! Man, I wonder what planet a exiled lord with a chip on his shoulder to the political machinations of the old regime will head to. Especially since he has mining management skills, that they might need in just a few short chapters to unearth the alien civilization!
-Yep, he buys a ticket to Candyla...er Hellhole.

Chapter 34
-The tug fuck couple tugs and fucks some more.

Chapter 35
-Crisis on Ridgetop!
-Mudslides kill off PA2 retarded cousins and her Uncle who was running one of the secret Iperion mines.

[Ampoliros]

Chapter 36 requires some special care.

I'll start off with saying this: I do not believe that Brian or Kevin wrote this chapter with the intent or desire of being deliberately prejudiced or purposefully discriminate.
I really think this chapter has to be judged independently by each reader.

Three major characteristics of this cause the apparent slight, take one away and it is easily dismissed as happenstance, but with all three it displays a suspicious lack of care for the perception of events in this chapter. Again, I'm talking about perception not intent.

-We are introduced to Tel and Renny Clovis, a happy gay couple who run the Ankor project, which is the loading zone for NAH!'s secret stringline hub. It's obvious no one has a problem with them being a couple. NAH! is well pleased with their progress. I give them a rare +1 for even mentioning a gay couple in their book, but I'm holding it in reserve.

1. Renny and Tel met in a prison. Renny, at least was a prisoner. (No mention of Tel)

2. The prison was on a planet named Fleer.

3. Renny dies at the end of the chapter, drowning in a slickwater pool.

Now, I'm not saying that Renny died because he was gay. Any couple in the book could have lost a loved one here and it would be equally tragic to the task. It is interesting to note that along side the storyline of F! gaining an alien personality, Renny is the only person (out of hundreds of eventual pilgrims) to actually drown in a slickwater pool. This happened when an earthquake opened a pool of slickwater under him.

My first reaction was that Fleer was a quick portmanteau of the words Flaming and Queer and it sure sounds like a Freudian-style slip. (Thank you Sandrider for reminding me of the term)

I'm just saying that all three of these things together in one chapter reek of bad taste. Like I said, you could remove any one of the signifiers and even I wouldn't bat an eye at it. (okay maybe a planet named Fleer....)

I don't know about KJA's personal beliefs on this, but from Dreamer of Dune I know that Brian didn't fully agree with his brother's homosexuality, but he never let it interfere with his love for his brother or acceptance of him as a person and member of the family and extended the courtesy to Bruce's partner. We know that Frank and Beverly did have problems with it to the extent that Bruce felt exiled...EDITED: Bruce died of AIDS in 1993.

So I offer this up for your own interpretation. Like I said, I cannot judge something like this without all the facts, I can only remark on its appearance.

[Lawliet]

I don't know about KJA's personal beliefs on this, but from Dreamer of Dune I know that Brian didn't fully agree with his brother's homosexuality, but he never let it interfere with his love for his brother or acceptance of him as a person and member of the family and extended the courtesy to Bruce's partner. We know that Frank and Beverly did have problems with it to the extent that Bruce felt exiled and eventually took his own life.

Am i getting this right? He commited suicide?

[Ampoliros]

There was some small reconciliation iirc when Beverly was dying, but they never accepted his lifestyle.

Edited for accuracy: Bruce died of AIDS complications in 1993. He did not kill himself.

[SandRider]

now I am going to suggest someone create a sockpuppet and go post this blatant example
of gay-bashing on a militant gay-rights forum, without Amp's reservations, but in a shrill
and hysterical voice ... also include the part about the women in all of Keith's books
begging for sex ...

the kicker will be: going on and on about Fleer obviously being a
portmanteau of "flaming" and "queer" .... also: of course the gay character
got killed off .... just like the slutty teenager is the first to die in slasher flicks ...

extra credit if you sign the post "James C. Harwood" ...

[SandChigger]

Whoa, guys, back WAY up! Bruce Herbert died of AIDS in 1993. [Corrected date]

June 18, 1993

BRUCE C. HERBERT

Electronics enthusiast - Bruce C. Herbert of San Rafael died at home Tuesday, June 15, 1993, of pneumonia as a result of AIDS. He was 41.

He was born in Santa Rosa in 1951 to science fiction author Frank Herbert and advertising manager Beverly Herbert.

Mr. Herbert graduated from Sir Francis Drake High School.

As a youngster he developed an interest in electronics, and became devoted to the field. At the age of 13 he built his own radio station at home In Fairfax.

Eventually he owned a radio and television repair company, Starburst Electronics in Fairfax, and worked for a television station in the Midwest.

He also worked creating and marketing computer software and was a professional photographer, specializing in video work.

An activist in the gay community, Mr. Herbert was a member of a number of organizations, including Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence.

He loved music, books and good conversation. He was an accomplished cook.

He is survived by a brother, Brian Herbert of Bellevue, Washington; a sister, Penny Merritt of Florence, Oregon; and several nieces and nephews.

Private services will be held.

http://www.sfgenealogy.com/marin/aids/aidsobits.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[SandChigger]

Three major characteristics of this cause the apparent slight, take one away and it is easily dismissed as happenstance, but with all three it displays a suspicious lack of care for the perception of events in this chapter. Again, I'm talking about perception not intent.

Now that you've provided more details about this, I think it was just a ham-fisted attempt to come off as trendy & PC (look, gay characters!) without breaking out of the current Hollywood "gay guy gotta die" mold by NOT killing off a gay character.

It's probably just KJA fan-servicing the 501ers.

[SandRider]

Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence ?

http://www.thesisters.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ??

do they have a facebook ?

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=67218004792" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


I wonder if they know that Bruce's brother is working with a homophobe ?

[SandChigger]

Why homophobe?

I mean, as opposed to the alternatives of ignorant & insensitive shitheel or closet case?


(I initially included a "gay-but-doesn't-know-it-himself-yet" alternative, but that's basically a homophobe, right? )

[merkin muffley]

"Fleer?"

[JustSomeGuy]

I'd like to thank you all for taking the time to read BH/KJA's books. I mean, it's nice to know what's going on without actually having to read them for myself. ¿How else would I have found out that they had Paul run off as a child to join the circus? Wow. I've wondered, though, ¿was he a full-on performer or more of a carny/associate? I'm not too interested in the Hellhole book (¿Should I call it Smellhole?), except that it seems to be their attempt at redoing Dune. You know, Dune-Ultra.

Anyway, ¿How do you do it?. I can't see myself reading their crap. ¿What's it like? ¿Are you angry-reading? ¿Do you ever feel embarrassed for BH/KJA?

¿What's it like? ¿Why/How do you do it?

[A Thing of Eternity]

I'm glad Chig corrected that, I was under the impression he died of AIDS as well, was shocked for a second when someone said he took his own life.

I haven't read Dreamer, but I've read passages where Brian said some stuff about his brother's sexuality that was about as ignorant as it gets, not technically homophobic, just a lack of understanding (not saying he isn't homophobic, just that what I read didn't prove it). He said something about FH being a bad dad causing Bruce to experiment with drugs and homosexuality, something along those lines anyways.

I'm not really sure how a straight person can experiment with homosexuality - I'd think maybe one attempt would be enough to convince someone never to do it again unless they are in fact gay/bi!

[Ampoliros]

I stand corrected, I can't remember where I got the idea that Bruce took his own life. The above posts were updated with the new info.

I think I'm one of the few (if the only..) "Brian apologists" in the OH. I'm not pardoning him from his fair share of the blame, I just think he's a weak link that the Hack exploited. I enjoyed Dreamer of Dune and if things weren't as they were I'd love to have some time to pick Brian's brain about Frank. (Although Dreamer did show some of the weaknesses in writing that both Brian and Kevin share, namely endless repetition.)

As to the actual reading of KJA's work: Well, lets just say after a dose of this dreck everything seems better. I actually promote his books at the bookstore with that line: read this, and everything else you read will be ten times better.

Reading KJA trains me to be more observant and also to write better. One reason I am so passionate about this is because in my early writings, they read just like KJA, the difference being that I was embarrassed enough by them not to even think of publishing them, and KJA just wants his check.

Plus, if I was only allowed to critique things on how entertained I was, I would have to give this book 5 stars. Simply because after the initial shock of "WTF Paul born on Kaitain? " the only real surprise is how much each new book actually gets worse.

Now I don't need to recognize the existence of his other work, but anything having to do with Dune (and Hellhole is just nuDune remixed) will get my full attention up until the day TOR cancels nuDune work. Actually, I even refuse to acknowledge the first three trilogies since they can be ignored ala "the attitude of the knife". When they dared to think they could pad the in-between times was when I had to step up my resistance.

Now sure, I'm an effete snob when it comes to literature (and music, gawd I wish I could turn my ears off...) but I'm doing it because a teacher I respect told me to fight for human exceptionalism, not to settle for mediocrity.

[Ampoliros]

now I am going to suggest someone create a sockpuppet and go post this blatant example
of gay-bashing on a militant gay-rights forum, without Amp's reservations, but in a shrill
and hysterical voice ... also include the part about the women in all of Keith's books
begging for sex ...

the kicker will be: going on and on about Fleer obviously being a
portmanteau of "flaming" and "queer" .... also: of course the gay character
got killed off .... just like the slutty teenager is the first to die in slasher flicks ...

extra credit if you sign the post "James C. Harwood" ...

No, if I wanted to start a shitstorm with Hellhole, I know exactly whose attention I would bring this too. Luckily, I'm not that evil.

[SadisticCynic]

What d'you mean, luckily?