Jessica to the Winds of Dune inconsistencies!

Post by **Freakzilla** » 13 Mar 2009 11:59

I don't mind old threads being bumped as long as it pertains to the original topic.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 13 Mar 2009 18:02

I bumped a year-old thread on FED2K and it got deleted, accompanied by
by a lenghty PM with "posting guidelines".

Given, Dunenewt's post was sorta on-topic, but maybe better placed in
the current "Seitch Tabr is Dead" thread, however :

1) I don't give a fuck about anybody bumping anything anyway.

2) "On-topic" is a pretty fast and loose term around here.

3) Thanks for the heads-up that y'all ain't gonna let Hyppo admin
your board, but really, WTF ?

4) I don't like Dunenewt anyway and I don't have a current Whipping Boy,
so my original comment stands.

5) We have a reputation to maintain as a hostile, unfriendly, cesspool of
malcontents. Which alot of you sorry fuckers have just fallen down on
lately with all this religious pluralism and circle-jerking.

and:
6) I've got a boat chartered for some night fishing on Baffin Bay, so ....

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 13 Mar 2009 18:29

SandRider wrote:I bumped a year-old thread on FED2K and it got deleted, accompanied by a lenghty PM with "posting guidelines".

Oh, the irony.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 13 Mar 2009 19:18

SandRider wrote:5) We have a reputation to maintain as a hostile, unfriendly, cesspool of malcontents. Which alot of you sorry fuckers have just fallen down on lately with all this religious pluralism and circle-jerking.

Hear! Hear!

6) I've got a boat chartered for some night fishing on Baffin Bay, so ....

Catch one for me!

(One of them what grows with the telling, if possible.

)

Dune Nerd · Post by **Dune Nerd** » 13 Mar 2009 22:26

Dunenewt wrote:Do you have any idea how much that itches?

You didn't do it right then. More practice (that's what I tell my wife anyway and I am sticking with it)

Post by **Omphalos** » 14 Mar 2009 02:19

Dune Nerd wrote:
Dunenewt wrote:Do you have any idea how much that itches?
You didn't do it right then. More practice (that's what I tell my wife anyway and I am sticking with it)

If you pansys were real men you'd pluck.

Mandy · Post by **Mandy** » 14 Mar 2009 14:56

No wonder you're so hostile

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 15 Mar 2009 08:21

In case you missed it, Byron has confirmed that it was the publisher who was behind the recent title change(s):

It’s my understading, too, that the title change was recommended by the Publisher. So there’s that…

(I assume he meant "understanding" there. Of course, he was in a conversation with Simon, so correct spelling wasn't a requirement.

)

So there you have it, straight from the thorse's ... um, whatever.

DuneFishUK · Post by **DuneFishUK** » 15 Mar 2009 08:39

SandChigger wrote:In case you missed it, Byron has confirmed that it was the publisher who was behind the recent title change(s):

It’s my understading, too, that the title change was recommended by the Publisher. So there’s that…
(I assume he meant "understanding" there. Of course, he was in a conversation with Simon, so correct spelling wasn't a requirement. )

So there you have it, straight from the thorse's ... um, whatever.

And by "It’s my understading" he means that nobody actually told him properly?

Seraphan · Post by **Seraphan** » 15 Mar 2009 09:29

DuneFishUK wrote:
SandChigger wrote:In case you missed it, Byron has confirmed that it was the publisher who was behind the recent title change(s):

It’s my understading, too, that the title change was recommended by the Publisher. So there’s that…
(I assume he meant "understanding" there. Of course, he was in a conversation with Simon, so correct spelling wasn't a requirement. )

So there you have it, straight from the thorse's ... um, whatever.
And by "It’s my understading" he means that nobody actually told him properly?

ZING

I guess this proves the "title change due to latest flop" theory right.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 15 Mar 2009 16:05

DuneFishUK wrote:And by "It’s my understading" he means that nobody actually told him properly?

For the second quasi-official spokesman of the HLP (Kevin being the official one), he seems to be pretty low on the phone tree, doesn't he?

But I imagine everyone in the HLP was just finding out about it. After all, Kevin was the only one (besides Squeaky When Wet) at that New York meeting with the editor. What do you want to bet that Kevin agreed to the change without consulting Brian?

I wonder if TOR will continue to put its foot down and order the editor to actually do his job for a change?

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 15 Mar 2009 16:56

What Editor?

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 15 Mar 2009 20:31

Whoa ... shit. I always just assumed that this Pat LoBrutto was a TOR in-house editor. Turns out he ain't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_LoBrutto

Patrick LoBrutto (born 1948 in Brooklyn, NY) is an editor, author, anthologist and a past recipient of the World Fantasy Award for editing in 1986. He has worked for Ace Books, Bantam Books, Doubleday, M. Evans, Stealth Press and Kensington among other publishing houses. He has held the position of Editor, Senior Editor and Editor-in-Chief, working with authors like Isaac Asimov, Stephen King, Eric Van Lustbader, Spider Robinson, Walter Tevis (the author of The Hustler and The Color of Money), the Louis L'Amour Estate, the Star Wars novelizations, Don Coldsmith, F. Paul Wilson, Joe R. Lansdale, the Dune Novels of Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson and Loren Estleman. He is presently an editorial consultant to publishers, agents and authors.

http://www.lobrutto.com/patrickj/html/Testimon.html

Starting second in the list:

Brian Herbert, New York Times Bestselling Author:
DUNE, THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD:
"Pat is an artist himself, a talented writer and editor, a Renaissance man who drops bits of history, opera, philosophy, religion, and politics into his conversations -- the perfect editor for a "Dune" book, with all of its twists, turns, and depth. It's hard to know where to stop saying good things about Pat, because I could write a trilogy of books about him. He is one of a kind, an editor extraordinaire."

Um, anyone here NOT of the opinion that someone who can walk and chew gum at the same time is a "Renaissance man" compared to Bobo Herbert?

And 3rd & 4th:

Kevin Anderson, New York Times bestselling Author:
DUNE, THE BUTLERIAN JIHAD:
"Pat LoBrutto has been perceptive and intelligent in working through my manuscripts. He goes over a book both as an editor and as a real reader, and his ideas have been the springboards for major improvements. Best of all, he really cares about the projects he takes on, becomes a hardcore advocate for the books throughout the tangled publishing world."

Tom Doherty, President and Publisher Tor/Forge:
"Pat LoBrutto is a fine editor and a great advocate for his authors."

Translation of KJA comment: "He knows better than to try to change any of my perfect prose because he's perceptive and intelligent enough to know that I have one helluva pissy-girl drama-queen hissy fit inside just waiting to get out of me like a newborn chest-exploder!"

Sorry, maybe he's good otherwise, but he can't have done shit on these McDune books.

Nekhrun · Post by **Nekhrun** » 15 Mar 2009 21:07

So I wonder if kja will comment on the fact that Byron now says it was the publisher and not artistic choice.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 15 Mar 2009 21:16

Hard to say.

I gather from his Twittering that he's too busy rogering Slippery When Squeaky Clean & Wet with a loofa to think about much else lately....

Post by **Omphalos** » 15 Mar 2009 23:14

I thought that Hartwell "edited" one of these books too.

You know, I'll bet that it would be a lot of fun to find those editor's notes. We can see how many good suggestions KJA told Brian to ignore.

Hunchback Jack · Post by **Hunchback Jack** » 16 Mar 2009 00:53

"Pat is an artist himself, a talented writer and editor, a Renaissance man who drops bits of history, opera, philosophy, religion, and politics into his conversations -- the perfect editor for a "Dune" book, with all of its twists, turns, and depth."

Well, he sounds like a fascinating and intelligent guy, but none of those qualities are required to be a great editor. How about talents like "fixing busted prose", "identifying and removing inconsistencies", "asking about plot threads that go nowhere"?

"Pat LoBrutto has been perceptive and intelligent in working through my manuscripts.

"My" manuscripts, Kev? Don't you mean "our" manuscripts? Or have you decided to abandon that fiction?

HBJ

Hunchback Jack · Post by **Hunchback Jack** » 16 Mar 2009 01:20

Sorry to double-post, but I just read this in the "Title change" thread over at DN:

Hypatia wrote:
Nekhrun wrote: Yes, the publisher's call. The book is complete, it was billed as the Hero Series, these new title changes are inconsistent with that and the first book in the new series.
You don't consider the planet itself as a "hero"? Granted, that's only if the "winds" referred to in the new title are meant literally instead of metaphorically.

My immediate verbal reaction: "Are you fucking *kidding* me?"

Or maybe she was being sarcastic?

HBJ

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 16 Mar 2009 01:35

Maybe.

Personally I prefer the interpretation that she's a fucking imbecile. But that's just me.

Or maybe it's sphincters within sphincters (clenched they can sorta look like wagon wheels?)?!

She's pretending to be sarcastic but secretly giving ole ByrByr the brown-eye wink that boredadminship is thicker than (she is?) water and she's actually on their side because SHE REALLY IS A FAN OF KEVIN AND BRIAN'S BOOKS.

Hunchback Jack · Post by **Hunchback Jack** » 16 Mar 2009 01:44

Dude, you're not helping when you give similes to help visualize what "sphincters within sphincters" might look like. I *really* don't want to know.

Oh, I thought of another reason why the publishers wanted to change the title: no-Dune fans might not remember who "Jessica" *is*.

HBJ

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 16 Mar 2009 01:59

Hey, that's a good one!

Because it's obvious that no one at the publisher really reads the shit they're publishing under the Dune brandname now.

Otherwise they'd know there will be plenty of recap of all the previous books!

cmsahe · Post by **cmsahe** » 23 Mar 2009 22:45

the jacket synopsis as was posted on DN:
'Between the end of Frank Herbert's DUNE and his next novel, DUNE MESSIAH, lies an intriguing mystery: how a hero adored by a planet became a tyrant hated by a universe. Paul Atreides is the man who overthrew a corrupt empire and then launched a terrible jihad across the galaxy, shedding the blood of trillions. The now-hated tyrant, the blind emperor Paul Muad'Dib, has walked off into the endless desert of the planet Arrakis, known as Dune, leaving his turbulent empire without guidance. It's up to his mother Jessica, with her daughter Alia, the brave troubadour-warrior Gurney Halleck, the resurrected Duncan Idaho, the Fremen leader Stilgar, as well as Paul's wife-in-name and biographer, Princess Irulan, to try and hold an empire together even as it tears itself apart from within and without.'

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 24 Mar 2009 00:21

Redstar · Post by **Redstar** » 24 Mar 2009 04:59

Jacket synopsis wrote:Between the end of Frank Herbert's DUNE and his next novel, DUNE MESSIAH, lies an intriguing mystery: how a hero adored by a planet became a tyrant hated by a universe (1). Paul Atreides is the man who overthrew a corrupt empire and then launched a terrible jihad across the galaxy, shedding the blood of trillions. The now-hated tyrant (2), the blind emperor Paul Muad'Dib, has walked off into the endless desert of the planet Arrakis, known as Dune (3), leaving his turbulent empire without guidance. It's up to his mother Jessica, with her daughter Alia, the brave troubadour-warrior Gurney Halleck, the resurrected Duncan Idaho, the Fremen leader Stilgar, as well as Paul's wife-in-name and biographer, Princess Irulan (4), to try and hold an empire together even as it tears itself apart from within and without.

1) Didn't Paul pretty much explain this himself in DM and CoD? And I don't think he was "hated" too much, considering all the people that flock to Arrakis for a fresh market and worship. Other than that, the only people that hated him were the BG and Corrinos (for obvious reason), and the billions of people who had family murder during the Jihad. Does it take a book to explain to the readers that genocide tends to piss people off?

2) Same reasons above. I don't think he was so much a tyrant rather than just a passive ruler. Yeah, he might be hated a bit more now for his role in Leto II's reign, but those effects wouldn't be apparent until much after this books period.

3) Really? Really? I think by now we'd get the picture. It's the little details they feel they have to put on the back of these things that makes me thing they assume we're morons and can't understand the concept of ideas carried over in a series. Ever other book series I've read came right out and said what happens, in happy awareness that you'd only be picking it up if you've read what happens before and know what the fuck they're talking about. Otherwise you'd put it down. We know how to read, we don't need the full-page summary they put on teen drama books.

4) Quite a cast of characters we have here! And we all know FH used each character in his arsenal to stress a single point. Actually, didn't he base his books around more than a single idea?

Is it just me or is this the most unnecessary book they've written yet? (Tied with Paul of Dune, of course). This entire "Heroes of Dune" series is pointless.

I can understand the sequels, and even the Legends series, but Houses and now Heroes are pointless. If Frank wanted us to know every minor detail that went on, he'd have written Battlefield Earth. This is all trivial bullshit that he left out for a reason. It's like OSC going back and writing Ender in Exile because he's too fed up with the series to actually finish it, so he's just going to force-feed us the stuff that we don't need to know, we can infer happened, between Game and Speaker.

Except that was, what? A ten year gap? I'm sure plenty of us would love to see how Jane came to be, and Ender's initial relationship with her. That's something that's interesting, though utterly trivial in the long-run. What these hacks are doing are filling in month and year gaps, things that we automatically assume happened because the characters tell us. So unless they write in some amazing plot device that overwhelms us with the sheer surprise (undoubtedly a la Marie Fenring, or Paul on Kaitan

) there's really no point. All we're getting out of this is more material to pore over for (even more) evidence they're are no notes they're using, and they're the worst excuses for writers ever. Which has already been proven beyond a shadow of a BG sorceress.

Nekhrun · Post by **Nekhrun** » 24 Mar 2009 07:22

cmsahe wrote:the jacket synopsis as was posted on DN:
'Between the end of Frank Herbert's DUNE and his next novel, DUNE MESSIAH, lies an intriguing mystery: how a hero adored by a planet became a tyrant hated by a universe. Paul Atreides is the man who overthrew a corrupt empire and then launched a terrible jihad across the galaxy, shedding the blood of trillions. The now-hated tyrant, the blind emperor Paul Muad'Dib, has walked off into the endless desert of the planet Arrakis, known as Dune, leaving his turbulent empire without guidance. It's up to his mother Jessica, with her daughter Alia, the brave troubadour-warrior Gurney Halleck, the resurrected Duncan Idaho, the Fremen leader Stilgar, as well as Paul's wife-in-name and biographer, Princess Irulan, to try and hold an empire together even as it tears itself apart from within and without.'

All that and it tears itself apart from within and without?! Holy Shit! Sounds AWESOME!

Whoever wrote that was probably in 6th grade.