Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I think that there is a list over on the old Dune FAQ too.

This would be awesome to compile. We have to make a pinned topic out of this.

An inconsistancies concordance?

GamePlayer wrote:This would be awesome to compile. We have to make a pinned topic out of this.

That's a good idea, I'm not sure if I can do that or Freak needs to. I don't see anything under "moderate this topic" for pinning it. Unless its just "move"?

Freak can you pin this, and if that's something I can normally do as a moderator can you PM me instructions for the future????

GamePlayer wrote:This would be awesome to compile. We have to make a pinned topic out of this.

Consider it sticky.

Tleilax Master B wrote:

GamePlayer wrote:This would be awesome to compile. We have to make a pinned topic out of this.

That's a good idea, I'm not sure if I can do that or Freak needs to. I don't see anything under "moderate this topic" for pinning it. Unless its just "move"?

Freak can you pin this, and if that's something I can normally do as a moderator can you PM me instructions for the future????

You have to edit the original post, down at the bottom there will be choices for, I think, "normal", "sticky" and "announcement".

Freakzilla wrote:

Tleilax Master B wrote:

GamePlayer wrote:This would be awesome to compile. We have to make a pinned topic out of this.

That's a good idea, I'm not sure if I can do that or Freak needs to. I don't see anything under "moderate this topic" for pinning it. Unless its just "move"?

Freak can you pin this, and if that's something I can normally do as a moderator can you PM me instructions for the future????

You have to edit the original post, down at the bottom there will be choices for, I think, "normal", "sticky" and "announcement".

Yep. That's it.

kewl

One that always bothered me...

In the House series, a Guild initiate (D'murr Pilru) starts out as fully human, and then is exposed to a massive overdose of spice gas. He then instantly begins to mutate. Over the next few years, he changes into the Edric-type navigator we know from DM.

Now I don't have specific quotes, but in FH's books I was led to believe this was a change in the species that occured over many, many generations. A combination of zero-g living and dependance on the spice-gas atmosphere, leading to a kind of sub-species, much like the Tleilaxu (having distictive racial traits due to branching evolution). I never pictured this kind of change happening within one lifetime.

Was I picturing this wrong?

Also on the subject of Navigators...

In FH's books, the navigators' tanks were described as simulating the zero-g environment navigators were used to. (using some form of suspensor-field tech, IIRC)

At the end of House Corrino, our young navigator hero has his tank cracked open, spilling out all of the spice-gas. It is then described that his body sinks to the floor because the density of the spice gas is not enough to keep him "buoyed".

So this means that in the new books, navigators don't float in a zero-g field, but are kept afloat by the density of the air in the tank.

Gas dense enough to keep a human body afloat?

Nah, "authors" too dense to do some basic fact checking.

You're no doubt right, though. Not my area, but I imagine that a gas dense enough to allow a body to float, without suspensors, against gravity, is probably going to require a massively reinforced containment chamber. And mutated/adapted to it or not, the Navigators are still human and will require oxygen to live; wouldn't a gas that dense interfere with their breathing?

Of course, we talking about something in the new, magical Duniverse, so all bets are off!

Anyway, there should be some discussion on the Navigators over on the DN BBS.

IIRC, there's a quote somewhere about the Navigators still being able to mate with normal human before they begin their transformation, so at most they're a new variety of human. Have to get Mastah B to tell us if that's the same as a subspecies, or somehow different.

That massive a change in an individual in response to an external factor (by which I mean unnatural, not normally genetically programmed for) does seem rather far-fetched, no? There's also the question of whether it's a genetic/germline change, or just somatic in the individual affected. (Can it be passed on to progeny, IOW.)

We know there are definite changes the human body undergoes in response to a low- or zero-gee environment. (Bone loss, general muscle atrophy, switching off(?) of the inner ear balance system, etc.) In the absence of exposure to mutagenic compounds or increased cosmic radiation, it's not clear to me that the zero-gee environment itself would cause genetic mutations. But it might interfere with development during pregnancy. (Anyone remember the results of those pregger mice experiments on the shuttle? Or did they get to do them?)

Either way, I think it's safe to assume that Our Two Favorite Rocket Scientists did not put a lot of thought into things. (sigh)

SandChigger wrote: You're no doubt right, though. Not my area, but I imagine that a gas dense enough to allow a body to float, without suspensors, against gravity, is probably going to require a massively reinforced containment chamber. And mutated/adapted to it or not, the Navigators are still human and will require oxygen to live; wouldn't a gas that dense interfere with their breathing?

Of coures it would, that's just absurd. They should have stuck with the supsensor explanation.....

IIRC, there's a quote somewhere about the Navigators still being able to mate with normal human before they begin their transformation, so at most they're a new variety of human. Have to get Mastah B to tell us if that's the same as a subspecies, or somehow different.

A subspecies is a little complicated, but is different morphologically or has regular patterns of difference in some portion of the DNA sequence from the nominate or "primary" species, and distinct in those same terms from other "subspecies" of that nominate group. Secondly, the flow of genetic material between "subspecies" is viable, but would occur infrequently--even if the "barrier" (whatever that may be) between the two subspecies is removed. A subspecies almost always occurs as a result of some sort of geographic isolation and resulting evolutionary changes from the nominate species.

Thus, if a navigator is morphologically different from Homo Sapien sapien AT THE TIME OF BIRTH, but could still breed with "regular" humans at/post puberty, but would do so infrequently even if regularly removed from their tanks, they could be considered a subspecies.

If a navigator is born "normal", is biologically capable of exchanging genetic material with Homo Sapien sapien, but LATER becomes mutated do to environmental factors (heavy spice consumption, zero gravity), is morphologically different, and is sterile he would NOT be a subspecies--he would still be considered Homo sapien sapien--just all jacked up (that's the official biology term BTW )

That massive a change in an individual in response to an external factor (by which I mean unnatural, not normally genetically programmed for) does seem rather far-fetched, no? There's also the question of whether it's a genetic/germline change, or just somatic in the individual affected. (Can it be passed on to progeny, IOW.)

Yes, quite strange. Certainly you could have radical deformation occur do to extreme environmental variables, but it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that would result in a genetic mutation--which then would have to be "Selected" for by producing a phenotype that would be passed on to viable offspring who would continue to transfer that to their children, etc. Since we know that they can only breed at a young age before the "transformation" than we know for certain they couldn't pass on such a genotype.

We know there are definite changes the human body undergoes in response to a low- or zero-gee environment. (Bone loss, general muscle atrophy, switching off(?) of the inner ear balance system, etc.) In the absence of exposure to mutagenic compounds or increased cosmic radiation, it's not clear to me that the zero-gee environment itself would cause genetic mutations.

It absolutely would not. And besides, you would then need to pass that to offspring and the resulting phenotype would need to be either beneficial in some way (i.e. useful in producing more offspring--"evolutionarily fit".) or at a minimum, not unbenefical. Remember, a genetic mutation HAS to be passed on to viable offspring to result in any sort of evolutionary change.

Either way, I think it's safe to assume that Our Two Favorite Rocket Scientists did not put a lot of thought into things. (sigh)

Uhh, yup.

Nice to know I'm at least in the right ballpark!

Gosh.. I bet it's pretty hard for KJA to read his notes while he's hiking

Mandy wrote:Gosh.. I bet it's pretty hard for KJA to read his notes while he's hiking

Hey! Maybe one day while he's consulting them he'll hike right over a cliff!

Q: If Kevin J. Anderson fell over a cliff in a forest, would there be any sound?

A: None but that of his own voice, still dictating, until he hit.

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:Gosh.. I bet it's pretty hard for KJA to read his notes while he's hiking

Hey! Maybe one day while he's consulting them he'll hike right over a cliff!

Q: If Kevin J. Anderson fell over a cliff in a forest, would there be any sound?

A: None but that of his own voice, still dictating, until he hit.

His Thetan would finally be released from his meat body.

To be reborn as a clam somewhere....

Yummy!

SandChigger wrote:To be reborn as a clam somewhere....

Yummy!

MMMMM, fried clams


Rob

the combination of the agony from landing and his cell phone smashing thru his head would create a new form of the KH...he can see the future and control all cell phones at the same time

(You're assuming the impact would dislodge his head from his ass, right? Or are you saying he gets kinky with his phone? )

He has to store his phone somewhere!

I've always found pockets quite serviceable.

Pockets are preferable!!

I hope that's not a case of speaking from experience....

SandChigger wrote:

Mandy wrote:Gosh.. I bet it's pretty hard for KJA to read his notes while he's hiking

Hey! Maybe one day while he's consulting them he'll hike right over a cliff!

Q: If Kevin J. Anderson fell over a cliff in a forest, would there be any sound?

A: None but that of his own voice, still dictating, until he hit.

Oh, there would be a sound. The collective exhale of satisfaction from Dune fans across the world