Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

leagued wrote:
The original Dune did not receive a starred review from them but both Machine Crusade and Paul of Dune did.
So, do you agree that Frank Herbert's original Dune is inferior to both and/or either of these latter works? Or is the Library Journal review system based more on predicting mass appeal than literary quality?


Literary quality.

And I don't think they were doing starred reviews back in 1965.

That's fine, because the review that Library Journal posted for Dune was written in 1999. So, again, I must ask if you agree with Library Journal in that Machine Crusade, Sandworms of Dune, and Paul of Dune (all recipients of starred reviews- though in MC case it was the audiobook and not the book itself) are better than Dune? If LJ reviews are based on literary quality, and you support them as a legitimate measurement of such, then you must agree that the original Dune is inferior to the new books.


I also thought I'd include the review of Dune to point some things out:

Dune is to science fiction what The Lord of the Rings is to fantasy.

Cliched.

Though fans believed they had bid a sad farewell to the sand planet of Arrakis upon Herbert's death in 1986, his son Brian has assumed writing the Nebula and Hugo award-winning series with the help of Kevin J. Anderson.

Not even about the book in question.

But the original is always the most popular, and Ace here offers a good-quality hardcover complete with maps, a glossary, and appendixes.

Refers to the popularity of the work, not the quality; therefore indicates the likelihood of the book to be sought out by library patrons.

The book's huge fan base should expand even more thanks to a six-hour miniseries premiering on the Sci-Fi Channel later this year that is said to be more faithful to the book than David Lynch's truly awful 1984 feature film.

Predicts a future increase in popularity of the book. Again, this showcases the fact that the main goal of LJ reviews is providing librarians with a metric to determine which books they should stock based on popularity. This is not a bad goal at all, but it is a different priority than that of other review sources.


You can't accept a review's validity in a vacuum. Background information is important so you know how much weight to give to that review.

Byron is surprisingly open to debate on this. Not that he's changing his stance or admitting to any flaws, but he's responded several times.

leagued wrote:Byron is surprisingly open to debate on this. Not that he's changing his stance or admitting to any flaws, but he's responded several times.

Maybe someone told them it's not a good idea to keep acting like fucking dorks during the opening sales of PoD.

Mr. Teg wrote:

leagued wrote:Byron is surprisingly open to debate on this. Not that he's changing his stance or admitting to any flaws, but he's responded several times.

Maybe someone told them it's not a good idea to keep acting like fucking dorks during the opening sales of PoD.

Didn't last long, he's been doing his thing again tonight.

Mr. Teg wrote:

leagued wrote:Byron is surprisingly open to debate on this. Not that he's changing his stance or admitting to any flaws, but he's responded several times.

Maybe someone told them it's not a good idea to keep acting like fucking dorks during the opening sales of PoD.

Indeed...but i actually believe Byron is happy that someone (other than Simon) is actually INTERESTED to comment about the book, negative or positive...the board is that dead...

boardadmin wrote: I would say that you already have a place to list your grievances.

You mean the other site right? That's the thing, I'd like to be able to list my grievances on the official board as well... without everything getting deleted or censored...

I think the main thing that might be bothering you is that it gave something you don't like a positive rating, and you feel that it's not legit for whatever reason. If that review had said what you say ("It's rotten to the core"), I'm sure you'd be posting that all over the place. But since it was positive, you lambaste it. But if it weren't, you'd be singing praises.

Wrong wrong wrong.

You think wrong. I disagree with their stance, and I don't care if they disgree with mine. But their review is not a review, there is no opinion there, nothing to discuss or dispute, because it's just a blurb with a single like going "recommended" they don't explain their stance anywhere in that piece.

I would like to have a decent discussion.

You know:

I think it's great, because...
I disagree, because....

There is no "because" in that piece you posted. And if possible I'd like to have a discussion without dead ends. So a discussion without people going: "well that's my opinion and I don't want to defend it anymore!"

You know what I find is sad sad sad?

Censoring and deleting everything that doesn't fall in line, an administrator who takes cheap shots at members and is willing to delete and censor discussions... it just reeks of an abuse of power... that's what sad sad sad

FYI, Nekhrun: If you come into a book with a predisposition for "not liking everything else the authors have written," why would you bother reading this one? I'm sure there are no other motives.

Oooh... Now that's just (*must not make personal attacks*)

What you're saying is, the opinions of people who dislike the new Dune books up to PoD have a bias against the authors and therefore any opinion that they develop about PoD is invalid. Kind of damned if we do damned if we don't, aren't we?
Why bother reading PoD? Maybe the authors responded to constructive criticism or have just naturally matured as writers and stepped up their game to a new level. Maybe because of a love of Dune and a desire to keep abreast with what is happening in the franchise. Stubbornness. Wanting to have a valid basis for critique- oops, nope, that won't work because if read it then we're biased, if we don't read it we're just uninformed haters.
I offer another option: It is possible that a generic individual could read the work and formulate an educated opinion of the work based solely on the merits and literary quality of the work.

Secher Nbiw wrote:

boardadmin wrote: I would say that you already have a place to list your grievances.

You mean the other site right? That's the thing, I'd like to be able to list my grievances on the official board as well... without everything getting deleted or censored...

I think the main thing that might be bothering you is that it gave something you don't like a positive rating, and you feel that it's not legit for whatever reason. If that review had said what you say ("It's rotten to the core"), I'm sure you'd be posting that all over the place. But since it was positive, you lambaste it. But if it weren't, you'd be singing praises.

Wrong wrong wrong.

You think wrong. I disagree with their stance, and I don't care if they disgree with mine. But their review is not a review, there is no opinion there, nothing to discuss or dispute, because it's just a blurb with a single like going "recommended" they don't explain their stance anywhere in that piece.

I would like to have a decent discussion.

You know:

I think it's great, because...
I disagree, because....

There is no "because" in that piece you posted. And if possible I'd like to have a discussion without dead ends. So a discussion without people going: "well that's my opinion and I don't want to defend it anymore!"

You know what I find is sad sad sad?

Censoring and deleting everything that doesn't fall in line, an administrator who takes cheap shots at members and is willing to delete and censor discussions... it just reeks of an abuse of power... that's what sad sad sad

This is a bit of a turn-on. Keep on handing Byron his sorry arse.

it got deleted

Of course it did. Spice Grandpussy has to "defend the honor" of his family.

A-HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Honor among thieves...ain't THAT a rich one!

That's why Byron was here this morning

The pattern for deletions is unfathomable. He's had to delete several of his own posts because they refer to our deleted posts, none of which have crossed any lines of bad conduct.

leagued wrote:The pattern for deletions is unfathomable. He's had to delete several of his own posts because they refer to our deleted posts, none of which have crossed any lines of bad conduct.

He's just drunk on power.

He will post flame bait, personal attacks, and will derail threads, but he won't allow it if it's aimed at himself, or his cronies. His cronies will post shit about others, but if we throw their words back at them, we get censored.

leagued wrote:The pattern for deletions is unfathomable. He's had to delete several of his own posts because they refer to our deleted posts, none of which have crossed any lines of bad conduct.

Oh gawd, that's so sad yet hilarious!

"Dumb, Dumber and Dumb Fuck"

Before i start let me say this: League, you're the MAN!

Byron is merely a PR, it's impossible to have discussions with him and his atitude that it is possible, reeqs of obvious hypocracy.
As it was shown by League (you rock), anyone that shows dislike for these authors works is considered biased.
I dont know if anyone here is in school but to those that are, just ask you're english or "you're language" teacher about these kinds of books, see what they tell you.
Do you know what mine said? Without having read the originals, they said that these so called novels are a waste of paper and they are redundant. They dont even regard them as anything of worth, they dont even bother to touch it.
And you know what? Those people are the ones doing the right thing. They dont bother to even consider them literature. It's garbage and they treat it as such. Good or bad atention, you're giving atention nonetheless and from now on i wont even bother to even look at anything related to that pair or the HLP.
For me Dune stoped at Chapter House and that's it, i'm going to continue to look for good books and read them. The rest is not even worth of mention.
Finally a message to Kevin J Anderson and his supporters: A few years from now, when (hopefully) i'm directing my movies here in Europe, you'll get your wake up call mother fucker.

Seraphan wrote: For me Dune stoped at Chapter House and that's it, i'm going to continue to look for good books and read them. The rest is not even worth of mention.
Finally a message to Kevin J Anderson and his supporters: A few years from now, when (hopefully) i'm directing my movies here in Europe, you'll get your wake up call mother fucker.

Oh, the wake up call is just over the horizon my friend

I'm curious to know why we'd be called biased if we hate the authors. Surely, the fact that we are reading the book should be encouragement to them if they are as good as they say? (besides the fact that we know it's not) And why should Byron care, if we're reading the book, at least it means we've gone and bought the damned thing, so why care what anyone says, the money is still paid.

Baraka Bryan wrote:

Secher_Nbiw wrote:And why should Byron care, if we're reading the book, at least it means we've gone and bought the damned thing, so why care what anyone says, the money is still paid.

because bad reviews by people who have actually read the book will potentially turn off more readers than all the 'rave reviews' by people who havnt read it will encourage more people to buy

Let's be honest here, anyone looking for a review of that, unless they are already a major Dune fan, won't exactly be trawling through the forums for it. They will wait until the Times or Grauniad or whatever paper will review it and take it from there. Which means it doesn't matter what we think, only what the paper thinks. And i have a sneaky feeling the mainstream will slate it.

Look at this:

http://www.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2793

This is from the newest registered user at DN. It's his first and currently his only post on the board, and he's promoting the Dune prequel audiobooks. Sound like lame-ass marketing tactics to anyone else?

Drunken Idaho wrote:Look at this:

http://www.dunenovels.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2793

This is from the newest registered user at DN. It's his first and currently his only post on the board, and he's promoting the Dune prequel audiobooks. Sound like lame-ass marketing tactics to anyone else?

It's an OH

Choice.

Some dumbfook named Bearded Kirklander on DN wrote:I understand that some fans of the novels may be concerned about whether they are "Canon or Non-Canon" but I'm not one of them.

I think this particular trilogy is solid enough to stand on its own and given that it is set so far back in the Dune timeline, it is easy for me to focus on what a solid foundation it does create, even if it does not strictly adhere to every single item mentioned in the "Classic" novels written by Frank Herbert.

If it were solid enough to stand on its own, it wouldn't need to tie everything to the later period of the universe or need "Dune" splashed so prominently across the cover.

Ah, the magnetic effect of the Dumb Novels BBS continues unabated! Drawing idiots to it from the ends of the universe!

Anderson is like the Pied Piper, drawing idiots of every nationality to follow him.

chanilover wrote:Anderson is like the Pied Piper, drawing idiots of every nationality to follow him.

QFT! He should be considered a necromancer for the amount of brain deads that follow him.
Lol does he actually believe himself to be on the same level with Philip K. Dick or Frank Herbert? Seriously?! From what i heard of the interview about his latest exploitation, he doesnt believe that Frank is that much of a great writter since he "left too many plot holes".
Oh the wake up call that guy will get! Oh the wake up call!

chanilover wrote:Anderson is like the Pied Piper, drawing idiots of every nationality to follow him.

well I find it surprising that despite his bragging, the Dunenovels forum is fucking empty...

you'd think that with the OH gone, there would be a surge in preek activity, but there isn't...

Secher Nbiw wrote:

chanilover wrote:Anderson is like the Pied Piper, drawing idiots of every nationality to follow him.

well I find it surprising that despite his bragging, the Dunenovels forum is fucking empty...

you'd think that with the OH gone, there would be a surge in preek activity, but there isn't...

I'm sure Byron is thinking, " Ahhh, I finally can relax. Nothing but mindless juvenile blabber. Phew, my brain was really starting to hurt. Thank Holy Anderson, the OHs are gone."