Posted: 25 Nov 2008 00:21
Is there some passage I've missed or a piece of Herbert lore I'm not following? I'm not understanding this resistance to the idea of a multi-galactic empire when Frank stated as such.
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Nobody is denying canon here. Were talking about when it went mulit-galactic, and the issue on the table is whether or not operators of fold-space ships could just jet out to Andromeda the second after they fired up the first engine, or if the target systems had to be visited and mapped first, for example.GamePlayer wrote:Is there some passage I've missed or a piece of Herbert lore I'm not following? I'm not understanding this resistance to the idea of a multi-galactic empire when Frank stated as such.
I think there's also the notion that spice is barely available towards GEoD, limiting space travel to a minimum, so fuck off exploration...SandRider wrote:chigger'll be here in a minute to defend this, if he isn't doing it right now while I'm typing ...
I think his objection is based on the real science thing - vast distances versus the given timeline - the God-Emperor's statement may be seen as a throw-away, fodder for the inconsistency thread .....
Where the fuck is he getting all that from?Simon (Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:03 am) wrote:Navigators and Steersmen are the same physically. However Navigators are like plain old licensed pilots, (I.E: newbies and accomplished yet not distinguished pilots), while "Steersmen" denotes a level of pilot seniority and experience (I.E: distinguished service, flight time and on the job experience).Moosaroo wrote:is there a difference between Navigators and Steersmen?
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SCM
The Spacing Guild has worked for centuries to surround our elite Navigators with mystique. They are revered, from the lowest Pilot to the most talented Steersman. They live in tanks of spice gas, see all paths through space and time, guide ships to the far reaches of the Imperium. But no one knows the human cost of becoming a Navigator. We must keep this a secret, for if they really knew the truth, they would pity us.
-Spacing Guild Training Manual Handbook for Steersmen (Classified)
D'murr's smaller tank sat in front of them all, solitary at the center of the semicircle. Relatively new to his life as a Navigator, still a low-ranking Pilot, he retained much of his human shape inside the enclosed tank. The members of the tribunal -- Steersmen all, each inside his own tank -- showed only bloated heads and monstrously altered eyes peering out through the murk of cinnamon-orange.
Would you kindly get the point I'm making? I'm not saying multiple galaxies were never involved. I'm saying I see no reason to assume the Imperium at the time of Dune was multigalactic.GamePlayer wrote:We don't get to pick and choose canon, SC. Frank wrote multi-galactic, which means we're stuck with it.
We are talking about the masters of business and transportation, in a feudal empire where the average human life means squat. The Guild is rolling in it. And I would imagine that thousands of failed efforts where they lose their ship would be worth finding one planet that could support life, based on transport charges alone that they would be able to reap, and notwithstanding development profits.A Thing of Eternity wrote:To Omph - I don't know, that could get really expensive, and we really have no idea just how dangerous piloting without a Navigator is in the Duniverse. If it was anything above 20% fatality I think that would pretty much make the whole idea un-doable.
Right. I got that.SandChigger wrote:Would you kindly get the point I'm making? I'm not saying multiple galaxies were never involved. I'm saying I see no reason to assume the Imperium at the time of Dune was multigalactic.GamePlayer wrote:We don't get to pick and choose canon, SC. Frank wrote multi-galactic, which means we're stuck with it.
Leto says his empire was. I accept that and have no problem with it. Show me in CANON where Shaddam's empire is stated to be.
I agree totally, but still, why go the hard way? As Chig pointed out, the number of places to search is staggering, even within one galaxy. Much easier and cheaper to search via analyzing EM emissions fom distant systems. Even if you're right, and you probably are, that finding a habitable planet would more than make up for losses - it still makes more sense to me to just find systems with habitable planets from a nice safe (and cheap) telescope station.Omphalos wrote:We are talking about the masters of business and transportation, in a feudal empire where the average human life means squat. The Guild is rolling in it. And I would imagine that thousands of failed efforts where they lose their ship would be worth finding one planet that could support life, based on transport charges alone that they would be able to reap, and notwithstanding development profits.A Thing of Eternity wrote:To Omph - I don't know, that could get really expensive, and we really have no idea just how dangerous piloting without a Navigator is in the Duniverse. If it was anything above 20% fatality I think that would pretty much make the whole idea un-doable.
Or it implies that there was only one galaxy at that time. For example: if we were to build a big UN prision somewhere today, we would say "the worst riff-raff in the world are sent to ____", but that doesn't imply that there is more than one world.Freakzilla wrote:The only thing that makes me think the pre-Atreides empire was multi-galactic is this:
The worst riff-raff in the galaxy are sent to Salusa Secundus.
~Dune
That is the only time FH uses the word "galaxy" in Dune but the word "universe" is used a lot.
Assuming FH knew the difference between a galaxy and a universe, that line implies to me that the riff-raff in other galaxies are sent to other prison planets.
Because seeing a planet circling a sun in our galaxy is one thing. Seeing a planet orbiting a sun in another is another thing entirely. It would be impossible.A Thing of Eternity wrote:I agree totally, but still, why go the hard way? As Chig pointed out, the number of places to search is staggering, even within one galaxy. Much easier and cheaper to search via analyzing EM emissions fom distant systems. Even if you're right, and you probably are, that finding a habitable planet would more than make up for losses - it still makes more sense to me to just find systems with habitable planets from a nice safe (and cheap) telescope station.Omphalos wrote:We are talking about the masters of business and transportation, in a feudal empire where the average human life means squat. The Guild is rolling in it. And I would imagine that thousands of failed efforts where they lose their ship would be worth finding one planet that could support life, based on transport charges alone that they would be able to reap, and notwithstanding development profits.A Thing of Eternity wrote:To Omph - I don't know, that could get really expensive, and we really have no idea just how dangerous piloting without a Navigator is in the Duniverse. If it was anything above 20% fatality I think that would pretty much make the whole idea un-doable.
At this point of course I'm just arguing because I love discussing the science of Science Fiction.
I know, and I actually already addressed that! To quote myself from earlier in this thread:Omphalos wrote:Because seeing a planet circling a sun in our galaxy is one thing. Seeing a planet orbiting a sun in another is another thing entirely. It would be impossible.A Thing of Eternity wrote:I agree totally, but still, why go the hard way? As Chig pointed out, the number of places to search is staggering, even within one galaxy. Much easier and cheaper to search via analyzing EM emissions fom distant systems. Even if you're right, and you probably are, that finding a habitable planet would more than make up for losses - it still makes more sense to me to just find systems with habitable planets from a nice safe (and cheap) telescope station.Omphalos wrote:We are talking about the masters of business and transportation, in a feudal empire where the average human life means squat. The Guild is rolling in it. And I would imagine that thousands of failed efforts where they lose their ship would be worth finding one planet that could support life, based on transport charges alone that they would be able to reap, and notwithstanding development profits.A Thing of Eternity wrote:To Omph - I don't know, that could get really expensive, and we really have no idea just how dangerous piloting without a Navigator is in the Duniverse. If it was anything above 20% fatality I think that would pretty much make the whole idea un-doable.
At this point of course I'm just arguing because I love discussing the science of Science Fiction.
Still cheaper and easier than sending manned missions to every system you want to investigate before even knowing which ones have livable worlds. IMO....Of course that (likely) wouldn’t work for finding habitable planets in other galaxies from ours, but all it would take is to foldspace a ship over to whatever galaxy you want to colonize, dump a whole bunch of low paid saps in a smallish space station with a whole bunch of telescope gear (of course this plan could use some work, I did just come up with it though...) and just foldspace back and check on them/replace them every so often. Let them find the good systems the old fashioned way.
What is this, an Abbott and Costello routine? The empire was established multi-galactic at one time, so the Imperium defaults back to a mono-galactic empire if at any point before Leto's reign? If you would kindly get the point I'm making and answer whether or not it was stated the empire was ever NOT a multi-galactic empire starting from Dune onwards using a passage or piece of Herbert lore I might have missed.SandChigger wrote:Would you kindly get the point I'm making? I'm not saying multiple galaxies were never involved. I'm saying I see no reason to assume the Imperium at the time of Dune was multigalactic.GamePlayer wrote:We don't get to pick and choose canon, SC. Frank wrote multi-galactic, which means we're stuck with it.
Leto says his empire was. I accept that and have no problem with it. Show me in CANON where Shaddam's empire is stated to be.
In the galaxy. Not "in this galaxy" or "in the three/twelve/twenty galaxies". Not conclusive of course, but a hint. (Edit: I see Freak has already mentioned this. My interpretation is exactly opposite.)"You speak too casually of Salusa Secundus," Hawat said.
"It's a penal colony," the Baron said. "The worst riff-raff in the galaxy are sent to Salusa Secundus. What else do we need to know?"
Don't forget, AToE, that this is how they did it pre-Guild. Remember the Ampoliros? Yes, you lose ships. But the faster you accumulate habitable systems, the quicker you go into the black. IIRC that ship was a "star searcher," or some such.A Thing of Eternity wrote:I know, and I actually already addressed that! To quote myself from earlier in this thread:Omphalos wrote:Because seeing a planet circling a sun in our galaxy is one thing. Seeing a planet orbiting a sun in another is another thing entirely. It would be impossible.A Thing of Eternity wrote:I agree totally, but still, why go the hard way? As Chig pointed out, the number of places to search is staggering, even within one galaxy. Much easier and cheaper to search via analyzing EM emissions fom distant systems. Even if you're right, and you probably are, that finding a habitable planet would more than make up for losses - it still makes more sense to me to just find systems with habitable planets from a nice safe (and cheap) telescope station.Omphalos wrote:We are talking about the masters of business and transportation, in a feudal empire where the average human life means squat. The Guild is rolling in it. And I would imagine that thousands of failed efforts where they lose their ship would be worth finding one planet that could support life, based on transport charges alone that they would be able to reap, and notwithstanding development profits.A Thing of Eternity wrote:To Omph - I don't know, that could get really expensive, and we really have no idea just how dangerous piloting without a Navigator is in the Duniverse. If it was anything above 20% fatality I think that would pretty much make the whole idea un-doable.
At this point of course I'm just arguing because I love discussing the science of Science Fiction.
Still cheaper and easier than sending manned missions to every system you want to investigate before even knowing which ones have livable worlds. IMO....Of course that (likely) wouldn’t work for finding habitable planets in other galaxies from ours, but all it would take is to foldspace a ship over to whatever galaxy you want to colonize, dump a whole bunch of low paid saps in a smallish space station with a whole bunch of telescope gear (of course this plan could use some work, I did just come up with it though...) and just foldspace back and check on them/replace them every so often. Let them find the good systems the old fashioned way.