Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

That's about how big Leto's empire was. Near the end of his life, at least.

I think I posted something about this long ago "Over There". The GP discussion reminded me we haven't discussed it here. (That I recall....)

FH in GEoD wrote: Idaho lifted his right hand in acknowledgment. He was emerging into the open space now and the dimensions of this enclosed place awed him. He set his trained eyes the task of estimating the dimensions as he mounted to the ledge and guessed the hall to be at least eleven hundred meters on a side-a square with rounded corners. It was packed with women, and Idaho reminded himself that these were only the chosen representatives of the far scattered Fish Speaker regiments—three women from each planet. They stood now, their bodies pressed so closely together that Idaho doubted one of them could fall. They had left only a space about fifty meters wide along the ledge where Idaho now stopped and surveyed the scene. The faces looked up at him-faces, faces.

Ignoring the "rounded corners" and open space mentioned towards the end, that's 1,210,000 square meters. If you assume six people (hunky women?) can stand in one square meter (that happens to be the figure they're using for crowd estimates at the Inauguration today), that gives 7,260,000 women. Assuming every planet in the Empire had a Fish Speaker regiment, three per planet gives at least 2,420,000 planets.

Or nearly 2.5 million.

That's a lot planets and cheers for doing t' sums.

Anyone around here able to supply an estimate as to how many planets in our Galaxy are capable of supporting humans?

I've often wondered about how the math from that scene would work out, thanks, SC.

But a regiment is a very small force to manage a planet.

In the US Army a platoon is like 30 guys, plotoons make up companies, battalions and then regiments which can be as strong as a few thousand.

It'd be hard to control a city with a regiment.

But these are regiments of Lanthanian Fish Speakers, not wimpy 20th century Terran men.

That leads to an interesting point, though: how big were the "big" cities on most planets in Leto's Empire? (How big was Onn in the Off season? ) Leto's proscriptions on technological innovation and forms of transportation would have influenced this....

(Dune...love it, explore it! )

alternatively, a regimen could mean a much larger force (in numbers) by that time. With such a large population to control, the size of military groups could have increased proportionally.

I'm also slow to accept the idea that the Sardaukar legions were strictly 1000 soldiers, as the term originally signified. I think the size of subdivisions may have swelled by the time of Dune.

SandChigger wrote:But these are regiments of Lanthanian Fish Speakers, not wimpy 20th century Terran men.

That leads to an interesting point, though: how big were the "big" cities on most planets in Leto's Empire? (How big was Onn in the Off season? ) Leto's proscriptions on technological innovation and forms of transportation would have influenced this....

(Dune...love it, explore it! )

I believe Onn was practically deserted between festivals but the Fish Speaker schools and government residences were there. I imagine most places are very rural. I can't image much industry goes on when the only means of transportation are by 'thopter or foot. Maybe the scale of manufacturing has been reduced to a much more local level. That seems in line with FH's eco-thinking.

dunepunk wrote:alternatively, a regimen could mean a much larger force (in numbers) by that time. With such a large population to control, the size of military groups could have increased proportionally.

I'm also slow to accept the idea that the Sardaukar legions were strictly 1000 soldiers, as the term originally signified. I think the size of subdivisions may have swelled by the time of Dune.

legion

1. a division of the Roman army, usually comprising 3000 to 6000 soldiers.
4. any large group of armed men.

~Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

Freakzilla wrote:

dunepunk wrote:alternatively, a regimen could mean a much larger force (in numbers) by that time. With such a large population to control, the size of military groups could have increased proportionally.

I'm also slow to accept the idea that the Sardaukar legions were strictly 1000 soldiers, as the term originally signified. I think the size of subdivisions may have swelled by the time of Dune.

legion

1. a division of the Roman army, usually comprising 3000 to 6000 soldiers.
4. any large group of armed men.

~Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.

granted. By the end of the Roman Empire, a legion was larger than 1000 soldiers, but originally the term applied to 1000 soldiers strictly (unless I've completely lost my memory of Roman history). I was just using the term as an example of a division of military that had shifted meaning to apply to a larger number of soldiers than it had originally signified.

(Freak, you forgot them six-legged horses. What were they called again? )

SandChigger wrote:(Freak, you forgot them six-legged horses. What were they called again? )

Oh yeah, thorses. Giddyap!

inhuien wrote:That's a lot planets and cheers for doing t' sums.

Anyone around here able to supply an estimate as to how many planets in our Galaxy are capable of supporting humans?

Until now, only the planet Earth.
But the astronomers estimate a number that would never pass over a hundred thousand, I think. I will try to find some sources.

SandChigger wrote:That's about how big Leto's empire was. Near the end of his life, at least.

I think I posted something about this long ago "Over There". The GP discussion reminded me we haven't discussed it here. (That I recall....)

FH in GEoD wrote: Idaho lifted his right hand in acknowledgment. He was emerging into the open space now and the dimensions of this enclosed place awed him. He set his trained eyes the task of estimating the dimensions as he mounted to the ledge and guessed the hall to be at least eleven hundred meters on a side-a square with rounded corners. It was packed with women, and Idaho reminded himself that these were only the chosen representatives of the far scattered Fish Speaker regiments—three women from each planet. They stood now, their bodies pressed so closely together that Idaho doubted one of them could fall. They had left only a space about fifty meters wide along the ledge where Idaho now stopped and surveyed the scene. The faces looked up at him-faces, faces.

Ignoring the "rounded corners" and open space mentioned towards the end, that's 1,210,000 square meters. If you assume six people (hunky women?) can stand in one square meter (that happens to be the figure they're using for crowd estimates at the Inauguration today), that gives 7,260,000 women. Assuming every planet in the Empire had a Fish Speaker regiment, three per planet gives at least 2,420,000 planets.

Or nearly 2.5 million.

Nice catch, Chig!

One more number to our better understanding of the Duniverse!

Well, now we can have a idea of the evolution of the human scattering through the universe.

just after the BJ: ~13.000
During the Muad'dib: ~1.000.000?
Just before the end of Leto's Empire: ~2.500.000

Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

Another thing however, maybe im not thinking clear because its late here, and missing something, but Leto cant have 3 from all planets settled by humans, since he dont know, or dont want to know maybe, where all has spread out. Its only from his 'old empire', e.g. not a total for the human scattering.
So the actual number of planets settled by humans would be a lot higher (and growing exponentially after his death of course).

About how many planets which could sustain human life, I think you can find wildly different numbers from scientists. It depends what you look for. If you look for sustainable planets, as in Earth-like, which can support billions of humans, then its probably very low. But if you include any planet smaller human settlements could survive on, it would get much higher I bet.
Not like Dune itself is a good example of an Earth-like planet. Got the right atmosphere, but not much else.

Shadout wrote:Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

Another thing however, maybe im not thinking clear because its late here, and missing something, but Leto cant have 3 from all planets settled by humans, since he dont know, or dont want to know maybe, where all has spread out. Its only from his 'old empire', e.g. not a total for the human scattering.
So the actual number of planets settled by humans would be a lot higher (and growing exponentially after his death of course).

I was under the impression that Leto's empire included all inhabited planets at the time. Remember Ix's attempts to set up colonies and how Leto chastised them for the attempt? During his reign he prevented expansion. He was trying to stifle the human desire to expand so that when he was gone people would explode with the accumulated frustration of thousands of years of enforced stagnation. So I think the math holds up pretty well as a general estimate.

Shadout wrote:Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

Specifically, planets with Fish Speaker regiments on them. If there were planets without such regiments, they wouldn't be represented. Hence "at least".

And there is no reference to "1 million planets" in any of the books other than Chapterhouse. (Unless by "early Dune books" you mean the heretical fan fictions penned by The (Hiking) Hack and The (Former?) Drunk? Those don't count in serious discussions. )


(If he had stifled the desire to expand, dunepunk, there wouldn't have been frustration. It's more that he thwarted or blocked the expression of the desire. )

That is fantastic! I've always loved the numbers when it comes to fictional constructs. So the Empire is 2.5 million worlds and the early Imperium, I guess around the time just prior to Muad'dib was the million the book mentioned earlier. Cool stuff.

But it's not really that simple....

The phrase "Million Planets" is used by the HMs and others returning from The Scattering. So it doesn't quite jibe with Leto's pre-Scattering Empire being bigger, does it?

Maybe it was an old, fixed expression?

Or maybe it just indicated the worlds that constituted the (Old) Empire in that part of the galaxy?

Curiouser and curioser....

Well, given that the Milky Way Galaxy is some 200-400 billion stars, even if only a tiny percentage featured habitable worlds, 2.5 million planets still isn't that many worlds for a galaxy spanning empire. If the Empire was multi-galactic, it'd be even more curiouser

2.5M was a MINIMUM from his calculations, I believe.

Hell, there's pobably a dozen inhabited, technoligically advanced civilizations in the Milky Way now!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

GamePlayer wrote:Well, given that the Milky Way Galaxy is some 200-400 billion stars, even if only a tiny percentage featured habitable worlds, 2.5 million planets still isn't that many worlds for a galaxy spanning empire. If the Empire was multi-galactic, it'd be even more curiouser

What matters is not the total number of stars, but the number of those star that have Stability, a long life-time, planets, habitable planets and so go on.

Baraka Bryan wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:2.5M was a MINIMUM from his calculations, I believe.

Hell, there's pobably a dozen inhabited, technoligically advanced civilizations in the Milky Way now!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

Which part of the equation do you think is bullshit?

Or are you just so arrogant as to think we're the only intelligent life out of 500 billion stars in our galaxy alone?

Baraka Bryan wrote:oh i have no thoughts on the legitimacy of drake's claims... just thought a thread talking about his formula wouldn't be complete without some XKCD

i figure by the time we find out definitively whether or not there is other intelligent life out there, i'll be long dead, so why worry about it

On the other hand aliens could be invading right now with plans of enslaving you as livestock.

I guess either way you're going to die, so who cares.

Shadout wrote:Those 2.500.000 would supposedly be planets with settlements on them, whereas I always understood the 1 million planets refered to in early Dune books, simply as planets the empire had explored, even those who couldn't sustain life.

Another thing however, maybe im not thinking clear because its late here, and missing something, but Leto cant have 3 from all planets settled by humans, since he dont know, or dont want to know maybe, where all has spread out. Its only from his 'old empire', e.g. not a total for the human scattering.So the actual number of planets settled by humans would be a lot higher (and growing exponentially after his death of course).

About how many planets which could sustain human life, I think you can find wildly different numbers from scientists. It depends what you look for. If you look for sustainable planets, as in Earth-like, which can support billions of humans, then its probably very low. But if you include any planet smaller human settlements could survive on, it would get much higher I bet.
Not like Dune itself is a good example of an Earth-like planet. Got the right atmosphere, but not much else.

Answering the underlined question (I don't think anyone has yet, sorry if so): the Scattering took place AFTER Leto's reign, not during.

Baraka Bryan wrote:i figure by the time we find out definitively whether or not there is other intelligent life out there, i'll be long dead, so why worry about it

Best argument in ANY discussion about aliens.

On the other hand aliens could be invading right now with plans of enslaving you as livestock.

Well, since we are all mathemagical around here: time humans have been language-users = 100,000 years, estimating i'll live to be 100, which to me is already too much, and since alien enslavement hasn't happened up till now, it is reasonable to expect a chance of alien invasion in the league of 1/1,000 -- much smaller than cancer or traffic accident. So... why really care?

Freakzilla wrote:Which part of the equation do you think is bullshit?

Or are you just so arrogant as to think we're the only intelligent life out of 500 billion stars in our galaxy alone?

To me, the part that is bullshit is that, since NO alien encounters have been reported yet, which implies that we know NOTHING of alien-life-development, this equation has at least 3 factors that we have no condition whatsoever to fill. It might provide at best no data, and at worst an illusion of comprehension, so...

And about being arrogant to believe us to be the only intelligent life... i suppose it assumes i am saying that "intelligence" a value-judgement (a morally good thing), which i do not, at least not when such "triffle" factors as galaxy-distances are involved...

I mean, come on, no matter how much more you think interstellar transportation might evolve... alien-enslavement can't be such a good business! The costs are way too high -- and once they stop being so, the technology is already providing you better things than alien slaves...

And since aliens are likely to be such bores are humans are, the entertainment value ("to reach a kindred race blah nlah blah") can't be worth it also ;-)