Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happend overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Paul had pres(ci)ence, and may not have wanted his mother to know, because he did not want her to be there. Since FH never said one way or the other about if Paul told her, either option is fair game.

Where do you see evidence the Jessica and Gurney are spying on Paul and Chani? Jessica is gone, back on Caladan to grieve for her Duke. Again, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic here.

You are right about one thing, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic.
Children of Dune pg 30 Gurney has agents on Arrakis who foil an assassination attempt aimed at Jessica's arrival. Alia is completely unaware of it until Gurney and Stilgar's men act. And before you suggest that this is after Winds, think on if there are any loyal Atredies men serving on Arrakis that would inform Jessica on their own volition, thinking it strange that Alia wanted it kept a secret. (even KJA does not suggest that Alia would try to hide Paul's death from Jessica)
Jessica is also well aware that Alia is a prime candidate for Abomination. Somehow I doubt she'd sit back and wait for Alia to tell her "Mom, I'm being possessed by Baron Harkonnen"

Even if Paul or Alia didn't want Jessica to know, she still would have heard about it. When Michael Jackson died, did you see it on TV or did someone tell you? Did you tell anyone or overhear anyone else telling people? News travels fast and Paul's death wasn't exactly a secret.

Jessica has many allies and friends who might have brought the news, even accidentally. The Bene Gesserit would be highly interested in Paul's offspring and would have contacted Jessica in an attempt to regain her allegiance and assistance in that matter. Why, in fact, that is most of the tension surrounding Jessica in Children of Dune.

SandRider wrote:prehater. like it.

I've been trying to come up with a justifiable one-star amazon review
for the new Silly-book that clearly states I haven't read it and will not.

tough going. all I can come up with so far is my old standby :

When I was a little boy, I put my pecker in a racoon-trap.
Hurt like hell, and I never did that again ...

and maybe the cliched definition of insanity:
doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results ...

Ampoliros wrote:Bumped, since we have Conway-sign on the forum today.

TheDukester wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:Bumped, since we have Conway-sign on the forum today.

Although it's pretty funny that he's been hiding his status ever since you posted this.

Here's a hint for you, Brian: we just assume you're the hidden user or one of the guests.

redbugpest wrote:I'm just gonna ignore the hate mongers and zelots this go around...

TheDukester wrote:Huh?

redbugpest wrote:

SandRider wrote:prehater. like it.

I've been trying to come up with a justifiable one-star amazon review
for the new Silly-book that clearly states I haven't read it and will not.

tough going. all I can come up with so far is my old standby :

When I was a little boy, I put my pecker in a racoon-trap.
Hurt like hell, and I never did that again ...

and maybe the cliched definition of insanity:
doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results ...

Hmmm

Isn’t one of your complaints about people posting reviews that have not read the book?

Shame on you Sandrider.

SandRider wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

SandRider wrote:prehater. like it.

I've been trying to come up with a justifiable one-star amazon review
for the new Silly-book that clearly states I haven't read it and will not.

tough going. all I can come up with so far is my old standby :

When I was a little boy, I put my pecker in a racoon-trap.
Hurt like hell, and I never did that again ...

and maybe the cliched definition of insanity:
doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results ...

Hmmm

Isn’t one of your complaints about people posting reviews that have not read the book?

Shame on you Sandrider.

no, it isn't.
never has been.
pay attention, asshat, takes notes if necessary.

we're not all SandChigger sock-puppets.
some of even have our own ideas & opinions.

redbugpest wrote:

SandRider wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

SandRider wrote:prehater. like it.

I've been trying to come up with a justifiable one-star amazon review
for the new Silly-book that clearly states I haven't read it and will not.

tough going. all I can come up with so far is my old standby :

When I was a little boy, I put my pecker in a racoon-trap.
Hurt like hell, and I never did that again ...

and maybe the cliched definition of insanity:
doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results ...

Hmmm


Shame on you Sandrider.

no, it isn't.
never has been.
pay attention, asshat, takes notes if necessary.

we're not all SandChigger sock-puppets.
some of even have our own ideas & opinions.

So it's OK to post reviews for books that you have not read?

redbugpest wrote:So it's OK to post reviews for books that you have not read?

redbugpest wrote:

SandRider wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

SandRider wrote:prehater. like it.

I've been trying to come up with a justifiable one-star amazon review
for the new Silly-book that clearly states I haven't read it and will not.

tough going. all I can come up with so far is my old standby :

When I was a little boy, I put my pecker in a racoon-trap.
Hurt like hell, and I never did that again ...

and maybe the cliched definition of insanity:
doing the same thing over & over & expecting different results ...

Hmmm

Isn’t one of your complaints about people posting reviews that have not read the book?

Shame on you Sandrider.

no, it isn't.
never has been.
pay attention, asshat, takes notes if necessary.

we're not all SandChigger sock-puppets.
some of even have our own ideas & opinions.

So it's OK to post reviews for books that you have not read?

redbugpest wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happened overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Paul had pres(ci)ence, and may not have wanted his mother to know, because he did not want her to be there. Since FH never said one way or the other about if Paul told her, either option is fair game.

Where do you see evidence the Jessica and Gurney are spying on Paul and Chani? Jessica is gone, back on Caladan to grieve for her Duke. Again, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic here.

You are right about one thing, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic.
Children of Dune pg 30 Gurney has agents on Arrakis who foil an assassination attempt aimed at Jessica's arrival. Alia is completely unaware of it until Gurney and Stilgar's men act. And before you suggest that this is after Winds, think on if there are any loyal Atredies men serving on Arrakis that would inform Jessica on their own volition, thinking it strange that Alia wanted it kept a secret. (even KJA does not suggest that Alia would try to hide Paul's death from Jessica)
Jessica is also well aware that Alia is a prime candidate for Abomination. Somehow I doubt she'd sit back and wait for Alia to tell her "Mom, I'm being possessed by Baron Harkonnen"

Even if Paul or Alia didn't want Jessica to know, she still would have heard about it. When Michael Jackson died, did you see it on TV or did someone tell you? Did you tell anyone or overhear anyone else telling people? News travels fast and Paul's death wasn't exactly a secret.

Jessica has many allies and friends who might have brought the news, even accidentally. The Bene Gesserit would be highly interested in Paul's offspring and would have contacted Jessica in an attempt to regain her allegiance and assistance in that matter. Why, in fact, that is most of the tension surrounding Jessica in Children of Dune.

Yes, I am willing to admit that, all things being equal, there is the possibility that she could have heard about the pregnancy, if you are willing admit that it is possible that she did not hear about it.

No, its categorically against her character for her to ignore this information. Its against her station for her not to be informed, and its against Dune's thematic character and common sense for Jessica (and the Empire) to know Paul has been blinded, but not that the Empire is expecting an Heir.

The real point to make here is that this, once again, is a choice of interpretation by the authors, and really plays no key role in the story.

Shouldn't it? Bloodlines are MAJOR component of Dune. Jessica would be doubly worried for Paul's offspring due to the risk of (and eventual fall too) Abomination that happens in Alia. Her entire reason for returning to Dune in Children of Dune centers around her fears of Leto and Ghanima's sanity while she watches Alia's fall apart.

For all we know, there was some stray note from FH talking about how Paul wanted the pregnancy kept secret. Even if there was some reason Paul didn't want his mother to know about the pregnancy, he wouldn't have been naive enough to believe she'd never hear about it. Even if Paul wanted no one to know, the Quizarate would see this as a major event. Paul would know that it would be impossible to keep a secret of this magnitude.

I think that there must have been a reason why the authors chose to state this, as it would have been easier to just say she knew, as it is a scenario that would be just as plausible.

Yeah, the reason is sloppy writing and a poor attempt to 'build tension' as you would say.

Try asking at DN (I hadn’t had my account activated yet, or I would).

You ask the question at DN. Then post your message in our Blazes of Glory thread when Byron bans you.

Remember, 9 years elapsed between DM and CHoD. Gurney could have installed his spy network after the events of WoD, as Jessica became more concerned about her daughter and the twins…

I already answered this, and told you not to use this excuse. Dune isn't a democracy. Paul was being trained in how to fight, kill, and avoid assassination attempts before his balls dropped, not because he was going to be Muad'dib but because he was a Duke's son. "Duke Leto the Just" was a name given to Duke Leto by his Propaganda Corps, not the fanatic doe-eyed serfs. Security isn't a word you speak in Dune just to get Lt. Worf to show up. Dune is not the Magic Kingdom of Jedi Hogwarts. Dune is a harsh world full of reality. A great paraphrase from The Incredibles: "these guys aren't like those people in your cartoons, they don't care that you are children; they are trying to kill you."

TheDukester wrote:

redbugpest wrote:So it's OK to post reviews for books that you have not read?

You'll have to ask all your friends at the Very Special Treehouse who are doing that exact thing.

SandChigger wrote:

But I find it amusing that he remembers the nine years now. Why is that again, hmmmm?

Ampoliros wrote:Security isn't a word you speak in Dune just to get Lt. Worf to show up.

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happened overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Paul had pres(ci)ence, and may not have wanted his mother to know, because he did not want her to be there. Since FH never said one way or the other about if Paul told her, either option is fair game.

Where do you see evidence the Jessica and Gurney are spying on Paul and Chani? Jessica is gone, back on Caladan to grieve for her Duke. Again, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic here.

You are right about one thing, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic.
Children of Dune pg 30 Gurney has agents on Arrakis who foil an assassination attempt aimed at Jessica's arrival. Alia is completely unaware of it until Gurney and Stilgar's men act. And before you suggest that this is after Winds, think on if there are any loyal Atredies men serving on Arrakis that would inform Jessica on their own volition, thinking it strange that Alia wanted it kept a secret. (even KJA does not suggest that Alia would try to hide Paul's death from Jessica)
Jessica is also well aware that Alia is a prime candidate for Abomination. Somehow I doubt she'd sit back and wait for Alia to tell her "Mom, I'm being possessed by Baron Harkonnen"

Even if Paul or Alia didn't want Jessica to know, she still would have heard about it. When Michael Jackson died, did you see it on TV or did someone tell you? Did you tell anyone or overhear anyone else telling people? News travels fast and Paul's death wasn't exactly a secret.

Jessica has many allies and friends who might have brought the news, even accidentally. The Bene Gesserit would be highly interested in Paul's offspring and would have contacted Jessica in an attempt to regain her allegiance and assistance in that matter. Why, in fact, that is most of the tension surrounding Jessica in Children of Dune.

Yes, I am willing to admit that, all things being equal, there is the possibility that she could have heard about the pregnancy, if you are willing admit that it is possible that she did not hear about it.

No, its categorically against her character for her to ignore this information. Its against her station for her not to be informed, and its against Dune's thematic character and common sense for Jessica (and the Empire) to know Paul has been blinded, but not that the Empire is expecting an Heir.

The real point to make here is that this, once again, is a choice of interpretation by the authors, and really plays no key role in the story.

Shouldn't it? Bloodlines are MAJOR component of Dune. Jessica would be doubly worried for Paul's offspring due to the risk of (and eventual fall too) Abomination that happens in Alia. Her entire reason for returning to Dune in Children of Dune centers around her fears of Leto and Ghanima's sanity while she watches Alia's fall apart.

For all we know, there was some stray note from FH talking about how Paul wanted the pregnancy kept secret. Even if there was some reason Paul didn't want his mother to know about the pregnancy, he wouldn't have been naive enough to believe she'd never hear about it. Even if Paul wanted no one to know, the Quizarate would see this as a major event. Paul would know that it would be impossible to keep a secret of this magnitude.

I think that there must have been a reason why the authors chose to state this, as it would have been easier to just say she knew, as it is a scenario that would be just as plausible.

Yeah, the reason is sloppy writing and a poor attempt to 'build tension' as you would say.

Try asking at DN (I hadn’t had my account activated yet, or I would).

You ask the question at DN. Then post your message in our Blazes of Glory thread when Byron bans you.

Remember, 9 years elapsed between DM and CHoD. Gurney could have installed his spy network after the events of WoD, as Jessica became more concerned about her daughter and the twins…

I already answered this, and told you not to use this excuse. Dune isn't a democracy. Paul was being trained in how to fight, kill, and avoid assassination attempts before his balls dropped, not because he was going to be Muad'dib but because he was a Duke's son. "Duke Leto the Just" was a name given to Duke Leto by his Propaganda Corps, not the fanatic doe-eyed serfs. Security isn't a word you speak in Dune just to get Lt. Worf to show up. Dune is not the Magic Kingdom of Jedi Hogwarts. Dune is a harsh world full of reality. A great paraphrase from The Incredibles: "these guys aren't like those people in your cartoons, they don't care that you are children; they are trying to kill you."

redbugpest wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happened overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Paul had pres(ci)ence, and may not have wanted his mother to know, because he did not want her to be there. Since FH never said one way or the other about if Paul told her, either option is fair game.

Where do you see evidence the Jessica and Gurney are spying on Paul and Chani? Jessica is gone, back on Caladan to grieve for her Duke. Again, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic here.

You are right about one thing, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic.
Children of Dune pg 30 Gurney has agents on Arrakis who foil an assassination attempt aimed at Jessica's arrival. Alia is completely unaware of it until Gurney and Stilgar's men act. And before you suggest that this is after Winds, think on if there are any loyal Atredies men serving on Arrakis that would inform Jessica on their own volition, thinking it strange that Alia wanted it kept a secret. (even KJA does not suggest that Alia would try to hide Paul's death from Jessica)
Jessica is also well aware that Alia is a prime candidate for Abomination. Somehow I doubt she'd sit back and wait for Alia to tell her "Mom, I'm being possessed by Baron Harkonnen"

Even if Paul or Alia didn't want Jessica to know, she still would have heard about it. When Michael Jackson died, did you see it on TV or did someone tell you? Did you tell anyone or overhear anyone else telling people? News travels fast and Paul's death wasn't exactly a secret.

Jessica has many allies and friends who might have brought the news, even accidentally. The Bene Gesserit would be highly interested in Paul's offspring and would have contacted Jessica in an attempt to regain her allegiance and assistance in that matter. Why, in fact, that is most of the tension surrounding Jessica in Children of Dune.

Yes, I am willing to admit that, all things being equal, there is the possibility that she could have heard about the pregnancy, if you are willing admit that it is possible that she did not hear about it.

No, its categorically against her character for her to ignore this information. Its against her station for her not to be informed, and its against Dune's thematic character and common sense for Jessica (and the Empire) to know Paul has been blinded, but not that the Empire is expecting an Heir.

The real point to make here is that this, once again, is a choice of interpretation by the authors, and really plays no key role in the story.

Shouldn't it? Bloodlines are MAJOR component of Dune. Jessica would be doubly worried for Paul's offspring due to the risk of (and eventual fall too) Abomination that happens in Alia. Her entire reason for returning to Dune in Children of Dune centers around her fears of Leto and Ghanima's sanity while she watches Alia's fall apart.

For all we know, there was some stray note from FH talking about how Paul wanted the pregnancy kept secret. Even if there was some reason Paul didn't want his mother to know about the pregnancy, he wouldn't have been naive enough to believe she'd never hear about it. Even if Paul wanted no one to know, the Quizarate would see this as a major event. Paul would know that it would be impossible to keep a secret of this magnitude.

I think that there must have been a reason why the authors chose to state this, as it would have been easier to just say she knew, as it is a scenario that would be just as plausible.

Yeah, the reason is sloppy writing and a poor attempt to 'build tension' as you would say.

Try asking at DN (I hadn’t had my account activated yet, or I would).

You ask the question at DN. Then post your message in our Blazes of Glory thread when Byron bans you.

Remember, 9 years elapsed between DM and CHoD. Gurney could have installed his spy network after the events of WoD, as Jessica became more concerned about her daughter and the twins…

I already answered this, and told you not to use this excuse. Dune isn't a democracy. Paul was being trained in how to fight, kill, and avoid assassination attempts before his balls dropped, not because he was going to be Muad'dib but because he was a Duke's son. "Duke Leto the Just" was a name given to Duke Leto by his Propaganda Corps, not the fanatic doe-eyed serfs. Security isn't a word you speak in Dune just to get Lt. Worf to show up. Dune is not the Magic Kingdom of Jedi Hogwarts. Dune is a harsh world full of reality. A great paraphrase from The Incredibles: "these guys aren't like those people in your cartoons, they don't care that you are children; they are trying to kill you."

Her knowledge of the pregnancy has absolutely nothing to do with “Bloodlines” and she is concerned enough to leave for Dune immediately upon finding out.

So, if I understand what you are saying, the Quizarate would openly defy his wishes, if he felt the need to keep this pregnancy secret, and Jessica would have her own spy network in place, even though the Fremen security is above reproach.


I think you are just nit picking on these points, and it really shows how truly close minded to this kind of “open” discussion.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:

Ampoliros wrote:

redbugpest wrote:They have almost nine months in which to tell her (the pregnacy was accelerated, but I don't think that means it happened overnight). The Bene Gesserit Breeding Program is a major component in Dune lore. The Bene Gesserit would be extremely interested in Paul’s kids, don’t you think? Shaddam has a spy network, Jessica and Gurney have a spy network, the Bene Gesseritt absolutely know that Chani is pregnant, they tell Irulan she might have to abort any pregnancy in Dune Messiah. Aside from their multiple concerns over Chani’s wild bloodline, there are multiple political concerns surrounding Paul’s having an heir to his empire.

Paul had pres(ci)ence, and may not have wanted his mother to know, because he did not want her to be there. Since FH never said one way or the other about if Paul told her, either option is fair game.

Where do you see evidence the Jessica and Gurney are spying on Paul and Chani? Jessica is gone, back on Caladan to grieve for her Duke. Again, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic here.

You are right about one thing, we are not dealing with anything like a normal family dynamic.
Children of Dune pg 30 Gurney has agents on Arrakis who foil an assassination attempt aimed at Jessica's arrival. Alia is completely unaware of it until Gurney and Stilgar's men act. And before you suggest that this is after Winds, think on if there are any loyal Atredies men serving on Arrakis that would inform Jessica on their own volition, thinking it strange that Alia wanted it kept a secret. (even KJA does not suggest that Alia would try to hide Paul's death from Jessica)
Jessica is also well aware that Alia is a prime candidate for Abomination. Somehow I doubt she'd sit back and wait for Alia to tell her "Mom, I'm being possessed by Baron Harkonnen"

Even if Paul or Alia didn't want Jessica to know, she still would have heard about it. When Michael Jackson died, did you see it on TV or did someone tell you? Did you tell anyone or overhear anyone else telling people? News travels fast and Paul's death wasn't exactly a secret.

Jessica has many allies and friends who might have brought the news, even accidentally. The Bene Gesserit would be highly interested in Paul's offspring and would have contacted Jessica in an attempt to regain her allegiance and assistance in that matter. Why, in fact, that is most of the tension surrounding Jessica in Children of Dune.

Yes, I am willing to admit that, all things being equal, there is the possibility that she could have heard about the pregnancy, if you are willing admit that it is possible that she did not hear about it.

No, its categorically against her character for her to ignore this information. Its against her station for her not to be informed, and its against Dune's thematic character and common sense for Jessica (and the Empire) to know Paul has been blinded, but not that the Empire is expecting an Heir.

The real point to make here is that this, once again, is a choice of interpretation by the authors, and really plays no key role in the story.

Shouldn't it? Bloodlines are MAJOR component of Dune. Jessica would be doubly worried for Paul's offspring due to the risk of (and eventual fall too) Abomination that happens in Alia. Her entire reason for returning to Dune in Children of Dune centers around her fears of Leto and Ghanima's sanity while she watches Alia's fall apart.

For all we know, there was some stray note from FH talking about how Paul wanted the pregnancy kept secret. Even if there was some reason Paul didn't want his mother to know about the pregnancy, he wouldn't have been naive enough to believe she'd never hear about it. Even if Paul wanted no one to know, the Quizarate would see this as a major event. Paul would know that it would be impossible to keep a secret of this magnitude.

I think that there must have been a reason why the authors chose to state this, as it would have been easier to just say she knew, as it is a scenario that would be just as plausible.

Yeah, the reason is sloppy writing and a poor attempt to 'build tension' as you would say.

Try asking at DN (I hadn’t had my account activated yet, or I would).

You ask the question at DN. Then post your message in our Blazes of Glory thread when Byron bans you.

Remember, 9 years elapsed between DM and CHoD. Gurney could have installed his spy network after the events of WoD, as Jessica became more concerned about her daughter and the twins…

I already answered this, and told you not to use this excuse. Dune isn't a democracy. Paul was being trained in how to fight, kill, and avoid assassination attempts before his balls dropped, not because he was going to be Muad'dib but because he was a Duke's son. "Duke Leto the Just" was a name given to Duke Leto by his Propaganda Corps, not the fanatic doe-eyed serfs. Security isn't a word you speak in Dune just to get Lt. Worf to show up. Dune is not the Magic Kingdom of Jedi Hogwarts. Dune is a harsh world full of reality. A great paraphrase from The Incredibles: "these guys aren't like those people in your cartoons, they don't care that you are children; they are trying to kill you."

Her knowledge of the pregnancy has absolutely nothing to do with “Bloodlines” and she is concerned enough to leave for Dune immediately upon finding out.

So, if I understand what you are saying, the Quizarate would openly defy his wishes, if he felt the need to keep this pregnancy secret, and Jessica would have her own spy network in place, even though the Fremen security is above reproach.


I think you are just nit picking on these points, and it really shows how truly close minded to this kind of “open” discussion.

I've heard people say that pretty much every argument against KJA is "nitpicking", his repeated inconstistancies both with himself and with FH, his poor style of characterization, the way EVERY single plot line in Sandworms goes nowhere and has nothing to do with the final resolution (deus ex machina).

Let's see you bring what little argument you seem to have in you over to my court, those threads are still waiting.