Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 03:12**

Bijaz was the Tleilaxu Kwizatz Haderach.

...Or not. Discuss him anyways.

(For those that want to go off the "He was a KH" topic, read my posts in the Hayt thread as quoted below.)

Redstar wrote:
inhuien wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Redstar wrote:
inhuien wrote:However he was far from being an ordinary Ghola, If such a thing can be said to exist.
Frank Herbert in Dune Messiah wrote:"Bijaz, what do you fear?" Paul asked.

"I fear the spirit seeking me now," Bijaz muttered. Perspiration stood out on his forehead. His cheeks twitched. "I fear the one who thinks not and will have no body except mine – and that one gone back into itself! I fear the things I see and the things I do not see."

This dwarf does possess the power of prescience, Paul thought. Bijaz shared the terrifying oracle. Did he share the oracle's fate, as well? How potent was the dwarf's power? Did he have the little prescience of those who dabbled in the Dune Tarot? Or was it something greater? How much had he seen?
Bijaz' dialogue in that quote leans more towards general prescience, but I also got a sense he was fearing his own personality overtaking him akin to possession, or actual OM possession. That sounds to me like what the Tleilaxu KH feared and what ultimately led to his suicide.
Sorry I didn't realise that you were joking, how could I. And don't you think that the spirit that Bijaz feared is his original self memories, were he any kind of KH Paul would know that.
The joke is usually people's reaction to thinking I really believe what I say. (Looking at you, Chig)

I don't think that's what he feared, since he was pretty happy at the end of DM about the possibility he'd get them back. The "spirit" could very well be an ancestor(s), or something else completely, and since Bijaz was never awakened we don't know what that fear entails. Bijaz himself probably didn't fully know.

I don't think Paul would know it at all. Realize that there were no Tleilaxu in the BG breeding lines, so OM memory identifying Bijaz is out. Prescience is a big factor, since prescients can't see each other, so Paul could have just did that and if Bijaz wasn't "there", then he'd probably be a KH. (I assume at this time, without the Siona gene, there'd be a variation in how a prescient senses a BG vs a Guild Navigator vs a KH)

But you also have to consider that Bijaz was an unawakened ghola, so he wouldn't have undergone the Spice Agony to fully activate his latent prescience. What Paul senses and what Bijaz taps into is merely unfocused power. Both the BG and Spacing Guild obviously sensed Paul in a different way before and after he "became" a KH through the Agony. I don't think Paul could have fully known unless Bijaz did have his memories returned and either told Paul, or underwent the Agony.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 03:36**

To me, the question is almost uninterestingly easy: He is a step on the way.

The Tleilaxu must have made numerous experiments in order to create a KH. I guess some of them were useful, and Bijaz' prescience would be an example of that (doubly so against Paul, because it would muddle his prescience).

So no, I don't think he is a BT KH - he is someone like Fenring, a close call...

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 13:47**

Navigators have prescience, the tleilaxu wouldn't have any trouble creating one if they can make a KH.

Bijaz was prescient but basically an automaton. i think that was one reason Frank chose to have everyone hate the Tleilaxu and have them always be villians: what the Butlerian Jihad had done with machines, the Tleilaxu did with genetics. They violated the spirit of the Jihad if not the law. I'm wondering if Frank intended the Bene Tleilax to be an off shoot of the jihad that disagreed with the method of control, but not the idea of control.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 14:04**

FH never said the BT KH was prescient.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 14:33**

Good point.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 17:03**

I think many people read more into the BT KH than necessary. He was an experiment designed to learn how to destroy a KH (Paul).

The BT KH was of a pure essence and would rather die than become it's opposite, which was how they planned to destroy Paul.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 17:20**

Freakzilla wrote:I think many people read more into the BT KH than necessary. He was an experiment designed to learn how to destroy a KH (Paul).

That was Bijaz' purpose!

Freakzilla wrote:The BT KH was of a pure essence and would rather die than become it's opposite, which was how they planned to destroy Paul.

Ghola! Bijaz was a ghola!

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 17:38**

Freakzilla wrote: FH never said the BT KH was prescient.

So are you saying that prescience, although a surprise to the BG, is not a trait inherent to KHs? That its existence as an ability was individual to the Atreides?

Or are you saying that the BT KH was a variant, with a purpose completely different from the BG goal, so prescience might not have cropped up even accidentely?

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 17:40**

there is no evidence (or need) for Bijaz to be a ghola (that i can remember). Being born out of an Axlotl tank doesn't make you a ghola, being a corpse returned to life makes you a ghola. Bijaz is simply a creation of the Tleilaxu. A Dwarf with distrans and enough prescience to mask his presence to other prescients. Bijaz was a weapon aimed and released with the instructions to activate the hypnotic compulsion in Hayt and to deliver the Tleilaxu offer to Paul. That was his only purpose. When he failed Scytale revealed himself to give the offer again.

Freak is talking about the KH that the Tleilaxu made which Scytale mentions. Bijaz was not a KH. His only special ability was prescience which is common enough, otherwise the Guild would have no Navigators.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 17:44**

Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote: FH never said the BT KH was prescient.
So are you saying that prescience, although a surprise to the BG, is not a trait inherent to KHs? That its existence as an ability was individual to the Atreides?

Or are you saying that the BT KH was a variant, with a purpose completely different from the BG goal, so prescience might not have cropped up even accidentely?

KH is a male with both sides of OM. That is all. The prescience may or may not be part of the package, but I don't think the books ever state that it was necessarily tied to the KH abilities.

We know that prescience can exist without male OM, so why not male OM without prescience?

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 17:47**

Ampoliros wrote:there is no evidence (or need) for Bijaz to be a ghola (that i can remember). Being born out of an Axlotl tank doesn't make you a ghola, being a corpse returned to life makes you a ghola. Bijaz is simply a creation of the Tleilaxu. A Dwarf with distrans and enough prescience to mask his presence to other prescients. Bijaz was a weapon aimed and released with the instructions to activate the hypnotic compulsion in Hayt and to deliver the Tleilaxu offer to Paul. That was his only purpose. When he failed Scytale revealed himself to give the offer again.

I was under the impression that belief in Bijaz being a ghola was common knowledge. I should think him coming out of a tank, and wanting his serial memories returned would be evidence enough that he was one. Though you're right. Was it ever explicitly stated?

Ampoliros wrote:Freak is talking about the KH that the Tleilaxu made which Scytale mentions. Bijaz was not a KH. His only special ability was prescience which is common enough, otherwise the Guild would have no Navigators.

I'm aware who/what he was talking about. And Bijaz may or may not be that/a KH, but it's an offered topic for discussion for discussion's sake. And prescience may have been "common enough", but Paul himself seemed to express some surprise that Bijaz had it.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote: FH never said the BT KH was prescient.
So are you saying that prescience, although a surprise to the BG, is not a trait inherent to KHs? That its existence as an ability was individual to the Atreides?

Or are you saying that the BT KH was a variant, with a purpose completely different from the BG goal, so prescience might not have cropped up even accidentely?
KH is a male with both sides of OM. That is all. The prescience may or may not be part of the package, but I don't think the books ever state that it was necessarily tied to the KH abilities.

We know that prescience can exist without male OM, so why not male OM without prescience?

The BG did not expect prescience, but it was a trait shared to both Paul and his son as KHs. Even if no one expected it, that does not discount the possibility that KHs are prescient by nature. There's the possibility that the BT KH was also prescient, unless he was a different kind of KH or prescience was unique only to "Atreides" KHs.

Prescience does exist without male OM, as evidenced by the Guild and some BG post GEoD, but the level of prescience as well as the type seems to be individual to KHs only.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 18:14**

Redstar wrote:
A Thing of Eternity wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote: FH never said the BT KH was prescient.
So are you saying that prescience, although a surprise to the BG, is not a trait inherent to KHs? That its existence as an ability was individual to the Atreides?

Or are you saying that the BT KH was a variant, with a purpose completely different from the BG goal, so prescience might not have cropped up even accidentely?
KH is a male with both sides of OM. That is all. The prescience may or may not be part of the package, but I don't think the books ever state that it was necessarily tied to the KH abilities.

We know that prescience can exist without male OM, so why not male OM without prescience?
The BG did not expect prescience, but it was a trait shared to both Paul and his son as KHs. Even if no one expected it, that does not discount the possibility that KHs are prescient by nature. There's the possibility that the BT KH was also prescient, unless he was a different kind of KH or prescience was unique only to "Atreides" KHs.

Prescience does exist without male OM, as evidenced by the Guild and some BG post GEoD, but the level of prescience as well as the type seems to be individual to KHs only.

Yes and yes, but there is still nothing in the text to prove that KH comes with prescience, though of course there is nothing proving that they could be seperate either. Freak was saying that FH didn't say the BT KH was prescient, and there is no evidence that all KH must be prescient. That is all anyone is saying.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 18:34**

Alia was also prescient.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 18:39**

But then she is an Atreides, perhaps that made all the difference.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 18:55**

Mandy wrote:Alia was also prescient.

I once made the point that considering Paul was the KH one generation ahead of time, than Alia may also have been gifted with that surprise.

She also wasn't fully prescient. She had to repeatedly take the Water of Life to get any results, and even then I believe the Tarot screwed up her thinking. She was prescient because she had the advantage of being Abomination, which wasn't really a good thing.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 22:49**

Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think many people read more into the BT KH than necessary. He was an experiment designed to learn how to destroy a KH (Paul).
That was Bijaz' purpose!

Bijaz' purpose was to restore Hayt's memories.

Freakzilla wrote:The BT KH was of a pure essence and would rather die than become it's opposite, which was how they planned to destroy Paul.
Ghola! Bijaz was a ghola!

I was talking about the Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 22:58**

Freakzilla wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I think many people read more into the BT KH than necessary. He was an experiment designed to learn how to destroy a KH (Paul).
That was Bijaz' purpose!
Bijaz' purpose was to restore Hayt's memories.

True enough, but he was also a weapon to be used against Paul to undermine his power... To place him under the control of the BT in exchange for reviving Chani as a ghola. I think it's fair to say that he had multiple purposes, and multiple talents to carry out those purposes.

Freakzilla wrote:
Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:The BT KH was of a pure essence and would rather die than become it's opposite, which was how they planned to destroy Paul.
Ghola! Bijaz was a ghola!
I was talking about the Tleilaxu Kwisatz Haderach.

So was I. I was making a connection between the reason why the Tleilaxu KH killed himself and the means by which gholas regain their memories. In a circular-reasoning sort of way, I was saying that since Bijaz was a ghola, he must also be a KH. A joke.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 23:18**

Redstar wrote:A joke.

These keep going over really well ...

Time to change your approach, I think.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 23:27**

TheDukester wrote:
Redstar wrote:A joke.
These keep going over really well ...

Time to change your approach, I think.

I like my approach. It's exactly as I plan, and each joke is wonderfully obvious for what it is. You guys just take Dune discussion too seriously.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 23:38**

Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote: FH never said the BT KH was prescient.
So are you saying that prescience, although a surprise to the BG, is not a trait inherent to KHs? That its existence as an ability was individual to the Atreides?

Some prescience was expected, near the level of a Guild Navigator. But the main purpose of the KH was to access both male and female OM.

Or are you saying that the BT KH was a variant, with a purpose completely different from the BG goal,

Like I said, the purpose of the BT KH was to find a way to defeat the BG KH.

...so prescience might not have cropped up even accidentely?

It may have but that was not the goal. Take the conversation the BT KH was mentioned in context.

Posted: **08 Sep 2009 23:45**

Freakzilla wrote:
Redstar wrote:So are you saying that prescience, although a surprise to the BG, is not a trait inherent to KHs? That its existence as an ability was individual to the Atreides?
Some prescience was expected, near the level of a Guild Navigator. But the main purpose of the KH was to access both male and female OM.

When I say prescience in relation to a KH, I should probably specify I mean "Paul and Leto II" prescience. I know prescience was expected in KH, but whether or not the level those two had is inherent to being a KH is questionable.

Freakzilla wrote:
Redstar wrote:Or are you saying that the BT KH was a variant, with a purpose completely different from the BG goal,
Like I said, the purpose of the BT KH was to find a way to defeat the BG KH.

I never thought of it that way. I just sorta assumed that the Tleilax decided to make one because the BG were, though it's obvious there would be a reason besides jealousy over a "toy".

Posted: **09 Sep 2009 08:19**

Redstar wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
Redstar wrote:So are you saying that prescience, although a surprise to the BG, is not a trait inherent to KHs? That its existence as an ability was individual to the Atreides?
Some prescience was expected, near the level of a Guild Navigator. But the main purpose of the KH was to access both male and female OM.
When I say prescience in relation to a KH, I should probably specify I mean "Paul and Leto II" prescience. I know prescience was expected in KH, but whether or not the level those two had is inherent to being a KH is questionable.

The Bene Gesserit program had as its target the breeding of a person they
labeled "Kwisatz Haderach," a term signifying "one who can be many places at
once." In simpler terms, what they sought was a human with mental powers
permitting him to understand and use higher order dimensions.
They were breeding for a super-Mentat, a human computer with some of the
prescient abilities found in Guild navigators. Now, attend these facts
carefully:
Appendix III: Report on Bene Gesserit Motives and Purposes

Freakzilla wrote:
Redstar wrote:Or are you saying that the BT KH was a variant, with a purpose completely different from the BG goal,
Like I said, the purpose of the BT KH was to find a way to defeat the BG KH.
I never thought of it that way. I just sorta assumed that the Tleilax decided to make one because the BG were, though it's obvious there would be a reason besides jealousy over a "toy".

The term KH has been overused and has lost some of it's meaning, it seems. KH is a BG term.

In the chapter the BT KH is mentioned, note how the subject is brought up:

"We sold you a creature called Hayt," Scytale said.
"Ah, yes -- Hayt," Edric said. "Why did you sell him to us?"
"Because we once bred a kwisatz haderach of our own," Scytale said.
With a quick movement of her old head, the Reverend Mother looked up at him.
"You didn't tell us that!" she accused.
"You didn't ask," Scytale said.
"How did you overcome your kwisatz haderach?" Irulan asked.
"A creature who has spent his life creating one particular representation of
his selfdom will die rather than become the antithesis of that representation,"
Scytale said.
"I do not understand," Edric ventured.
"He killed himself," the Reverend Mother growled.
"Follow me well, Reverend Mother," Scytale warned,...

Posted: **09 Sep 2009 08:48**

hmmm, so the Bene Tleilax Kwisatz Haderach pre-dated Paul (an assumption I know but a safe one). I must re-read these wonderful books, my recall was that this disclosure happen in CH:D.

Posted: **09 Sep 2009 09:19**

Redstar wrote:
TheDukester wrote:
Redstar wrote:A joke.
These keep going over really well ...

Time to change your approach, I think.
I like my approach. It's exactly as I plan, and each joke is wonderfully obvious for what it is. You guys just take Dune discussion too seriously.

ok, I think I got that one.

no, wait... what ?

Posted: **09 Sep 2009 09:50**

Redstar wrote: You guys just take Dune discussion too seriously.

Ha! Fair enough. Nicely played.

Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

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