Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

In another thread this site was posted: http://www.moongadget.com/origins/dune.html

Reading through it I got to this:

Herbert borrowed several other riffs from Sophocles, including the blind prophet, the hero becoming blind at the death of his wife, and the flawed person being sent out into the wasteland to die (rather than burdening his family and tribe). Herbert also flirted with the subtheme of incest: if love can only exist between equals, there aren't enough superhumans on Arrakis to go around, so Atreides siblings tend to fall in love: Leto II and Ghani follow the Path of Light, refusing to act on their almost romantic love for each other. Alia is in love with Paul, so she arranges for him to chance upon her when she has no clothes on. This attempt to seduce Paul into an incestuous relationship is evidence that Alia has fallen to the Dark Path.

Interesting take on the Alia fighting naked thing. That's not what I thought it was about. I took it to be her need for a mate; basically what Stilgar points out. Mohiam tries to see if incest is possible but both Paul and Alia seem to object to the idea.

While Leto and Ghani share quite a strong bond Leto says:

Sister mine, I love you more dearly than myself, but that [Ghani bearing his children] is not the tender of my desires.

Before this, however, Leto does was "suppressing the inner betrayals". Which might suggest he speaks other than he thinks. But I think this is a possible reference to his taking the throne but marrying Ghani in order to retain the Atreides name.

Anyway, any thoughts on either pairing?

(By the way, sorry if this is an awkward subject for anyone.)

Alia and Paul never really gave me that vibe. Ghani and Leto however seemed rather creepy at times. Perhaps it's just my perverse mind, but when they play the parent game I always thought of what a couple with that sort of chance might actually want to do... I suppose that's more Paul and Chani, but it is Leto and Ghani's bodies

The only ones who seem to ever support the idea of incest would be the Bene Gesserit for their breeding purposes. I think Mohiam even explains this to Paul in their first meeting. Other than that i do get the impression of it being taboo in the Dune Universe as well.

I agree with the comparison to Sophocles.

I did get the incest vibe from Children of Dune, but not as much anywhere else, though it may have been meant to be more of a one sided desire by Alia, just as I felt there was undertones of interest by the Baron towards Feyd.

The 32-day absence ends!

TheDukester wrote:

The 32-day absence ends!

I didn't know you were counting....

but yes, I had some time today to see what I have been missing...

Sigh.

One click, Brian. I looked to see when your most recent post had been. No one was counting. It was one click.

TheDukester wrote:Sigh.

One click, Brian. I looked to see when your most recent post had been. No one was counting. It was one click.

And I thought I was feeing some love. *sigh*

Looks like I have missed a bunch of stuff...

yeah, this board has members & stuff.

BTW, what's happened with the Chaos Forum ?

Futar wrote:Alia and Paul never really gave me that vibe. Ghani and Leto however seemed rather creepy at times. Perhaps it's just my perverse mind, but when they play the parent game I always thought of what a couple with that sort of chance might actually want to do... I suppose that's more Paul and Chani, but it is Leto and Ghani's bodies

I agree with that, Leto & Ghani relationship is far more complicated and private than Paul & Alia's, who is only "on heat" .
Leto & Ghani are closer, cause of Paul & Chani OM but they belong all their OM (e.g. Leto I & Jessica --> remember the scene between Jessica & Leto II, she look the grandfather more than her grandchild...).

SandRider wrote:yeah, this board has members & stuff.

BTW, what's happened with the Chaos Forum ?

I took it down. I am repurposing my site, and decided the forum concept, while nifty, just didn't fit.

How is your Dune forum holding up? Looked a little empty when I dropped in…

redbugpest wrote:I agree with the comparison to Sophocles.

Well STOP the fucking presses!

(No, seriously, STOP the Dynumbnic Duo from publishing anything else with DUNE on the cover! )

Like Dune, Sophocles reads much better in the original.

Futar wrote:Alia and Paul never really gave me that vibe. Ghani and Leto however seemed rather creepy at times. Perhaps it's just my perverse mind, but when they play the parent game I always thought of what a couple with that sort of chance might actually want to do... I suppose that's more Paul and Chani, but it is Leto and Ghani's bodies

The only ones who seem to ever support the idea of incest would be the Bene Gesserit for their breeding purposes. I think Mohiam even explains this to Paul in their first meeting. Other than that i do get the impression of it being taboo in the Dune Universe as well.

It does appear to be taboo and is especially so within Fremen culture, and I agree with you about Alia and Paul; I simply thought the conclusion that the author of the site got to, that Alia fought naked knowing Paul would find her so, was a little odd. Was she in love with Paul? Did I miss something?

I'm rereading Children of Dune and that scene were they do the parent trick can give you such thoughts.

I think the only reason the Bene Gesserit are not fond of it is the interference of accumulating recessives, which can be difficult to eliminate later.

SadisticCynic wrote:I think the only reason the Bene Gesserit are not fond of it is the interference of accumulating recessives, which can be difficult to eliminate later.

for some reason that thought escaped me earlier but it does make sense

this is what i thought of when referencing the BG using incest in the first place:

Paul: "Then why couldn't she know who her parents are?"
Mohiam: "Some do. . . . Many don't. We might, for example, have wanted to breed her to a close relative to set up a dominant in some genetic trait. We have many reasons."

from the first chapter of the original

It's important to note the difference between incest and inbreeding. Inbreeding is merely the genetic factors involved, and you can easily inbreed with someone outside the family but inside your genetic society that is similar enough to be considered similar enough not to promote diversity.

Incest is the cultural side of inbreeding, which can differ among different areas. Cousin-marriages are extremely common and sometimes even promoted nearly everywhere but the US. To "commit incest" is merely to break taboo.

I think it's possible that Leto II and Ghanima would share some semblance of romantic love for each other and possibly have committed inbreeding if their roles for humanity were much different. It should be realized that both are pre-born, so are ultimately sociologists more than Fremen. They have the advantage of being outside-looking-in and wouldn't have the qualms most humans do. They only pretend to, or manipulate the taboos of others (Pharaonic marriage), because they have roles to fill.

Paul and Alia-incest is just stupid. They no had no chemistry.

redbugpest wrote:

SandRider wrote:yeah, this board has members & stuff.

BTW, what's happened with the Chaos Forum ?

I took it down. I am repurposing my site, and decided the forum concept, while nifty, just didn't fit.

How is your Dune forum holding up? Looked a little empty when I dropped in…

I don't have a "Dune Forum" - I used a free php message board service to collect all of Frank's
interviews & essays in one place, which was easy to do because there are not many of them.

built that site in a few days over Christmas week last year & haven't added or worked on it since.
it wasn't publicized beyond a few people here until earlier this year, when I ran across the link again.
(I'd sorta forgotten about it) and put it out there for anyone who was interested to take over and
build on.

it's not a forum, it's a library.

That's not your forum it's a library, baby!

Apart from the BG suggesting either a Paul/Alia or Leto/Ghanima crossbreeding in Dune Messiah and Children of Dune, respectively, I didn't notice any incestuous vibe between Paul and Alia. Leto and Ghani did creep me out a little. One problem I always had was trying to take them serious, when they're supposed to be 9 years old. Imagining any of their lines coming out of a 9 year old's mouth just seems incredibly wierd to me. (Probably one reason I prefer imagining Leto and Ghani as the actors from the CoD miniseries. I can take them more seriously than 2 9 year olds.) The CoD miniseries is what really brought the creepy Leto/Ghani vibe. Watching James McEvoy and Jessica Brooks gave me the creeps sometimes, particularly in the scene where Leto comes back from the desert,all sandtrouted up.

RedHeadKevin wrote:Watching James McEvoy and Jessica Brooks gave me the creeps sometimes ...

That's odd. It gave me a funny tingling in my nethers ...

TheDukester wrote:

RedHeadKevin wrote:Watching James McEvoy and Jessica Brooks gave me the creeps sometimes ...

That's odd. It gave me a funny tingling in my nethers ...

Um... mine too...?

Um, I probably needn't mention this, but as for what that scene did to my "nethers"

I GOT PIX!!!

I certainly did not get a 'tingling'. And I certainly do not have the time stamp for Jessica Brooks in her night gown memorized (Part 2 50:49). I most certainly do not have a habit of watching it over and over again.


But I don't have pics, so i can't prove any of this.

SandChigger wrote:Um, I probably needn't mention this, but as for what that scene did to my "nethers"

I GOT PIX!!!

No offense, but I think I'm gonna pass on those pix, Chig.

Ampoliros wrote:I certainly did not get a 'tingling'. And I certainly do not have the time stamp for Jessica Brooks in her night gown memorized (Part 2 50:49). I most certainly do not have a habit of watching it over and over again.


But I don't have pics, so i can't prove any of this.

Tleszer wrote:

SandChigger wrote:Um, I probably needn't mention this, but as for what that scene did to my "nethers"

I GOT PIX!!!

No offense, but I think I'm gonna pass on those pix, Chig.

That's OK, really. Most people do. Some even pass out. Or vomit into their mouths. I'm not bothered.

is it any worse than this? http://www.twochigsonecup.com

Depends on what you're into.