Other Memory

[Crysknife]

I think Spice Liquor is just that, something made from normal spice. Essence would just be another name for changed WoL. It can't be called WoL if it's changed to something else!

There is a reference to "unchanged spice essence" in the books. Well that would only make sense if it was the WoL. Changed Essence would have been a vital part of the Fremen's diet so this is why we see it used in Fremen cooking.

Paul focused his memory on the encounter with Irulan. He'd let himself into
the family salon, noted an unfinished robe on Chani's loom. There'd been an
acrid wormsmell to the place, an evil odor which almost hid the underlying
cinnamon bite of melange. Someone had spilled unchanged spice essence and left
it to combine there with a spice-based rug.

[SandChigger]

Crys, are you sure they would have used changed essence for anything besides the tau orgy? I always had the feeling it was regular (blow) spice they used in their cooking, tea, beer, etc.

[Crysknife]

Paul stood beside Chani in the shadows of the inner cave. He could still
taste the morsel she had fed him--bird flesh and grain bound with spice honey
and encased in a leaf. In tasting it he had realized he never before had eaten
such a concentration of spice essence and there had been a moment of fear. He
knew what this essence could do to him--the spice change that pushed his mind
into prescient awareness.

Well, this is just theory of mine. It is the only way I can explain everything written about the spice. "Unchanged spice essence" just doesn't make any sense unless it's actually another name for WoL, and having spice essence in food doesn't make any sense unless it's changed, or else everyone would die.

[SandChigger]

Sorry, you're right. I just went back through and looked at the 16 occurrences of "spice essence" in the originals. The only way for it to make sense when mentioned in the context of food eaten by normal people is to assume that it means changed WoL.

[inhuien]

WOW, that's heavy. I've never once got even close to making that connection/correlation but it does of an explanation to the collective consciousness thing the Freman have going on.

[inhuien]

There's never any mention of Melange dependant offspring from Melange addicts, my guess would be that the umbilical prohibits it's transfer from Mother to Child. Which is thankful as withdrawal would kill the child.

edit to add...

But the Water of Life is another matter of course.

I've been pondering this and have came up with a pretty obvious counter argument. That being the case of Chani and the Atreides Twins who are of course awakened to full consciousness in Chani's womb because of the huge doses of melange she was ingesting. Although i've thinking now that it could have been a combination of factors:

* the mixture of wild Freman genes and Atreides.
* the huge appetite of Chani while pregnant and the now discovered WoL in the Freman diet.
* or it could always have been good old chemical change to quote Mr. Hicks.

[Crysknife]

There's never any mention of Melange dependant offspring from Melange addicts, my guess would be that the umbilical prohibits it's transfer from Mother to Child. Which is thankful as withdrawal would kill the child.

edit to add...

But the Water of Life is another matter of course.

I've been pondering this and have came up with a pretty obvious counter argument. That being the case of Chani and the Atreides Twins who are of course awakened to full consciousness in Chani's womb because of the huge doses of melange she was ingesting. Although i've thinking now that it could have been a combination of factors:

* the mixture of wild Freman genes and Atreides.
* the huge appetite of Chani while pregnant and the now discovered WoL in the Freman diet.
* or it could always have been good old chemical change to quote Mr. Hicks.

Chani was poisoned by Irulan with unchanged WoL, right before she gave birth.

It's obvious if you read Messiah.

(probably get killed for this one.....agian )

[inhuien]

So she died a wild RM?

[Crysknife]

So she died a wild RM?

Would you want to go through the Agony while giving birth to twins? She didn't make it to the wild RM part, but Leto and Ghani did!

[inhuien]

I don't see that Chani would have a choice here, once

Chani was poisoned by Irulan with unchanged WoL, right before she gave birth.

she would be forced to change the WoL or die, she didn't die (right then) so she must have changed it. At least that's my take on it, assuming you're right on the WoL poisoning. I've had a look for a section supporting that and came up plums, could you point me in the right direction pls.

[Tyrant]

There's never any mention of Melange dependant offspring from Melange addicts, my guess would be that the umbilical prohibits it's transfer from Mother to Child. Which is thankful as withdrawal would kill the child.

edit to add...

But the Water of Life is another matter of course.

I've been pondering this and have came up with a pretty obvious counter argument. That being the case of Chani and the Atreides Twins who are of course awakened to full consciousness in Chani's womb because of the huge doses of melange she was ingesting. Although i've thinking now that it could have been a combination of factors:

* the mixture of wild Freman genes and Atreides.
* the huge appetite of Chani while pregnant and the now discovered WoL in the Freman diet.
* or it could always have been good old chemical change to quote Mr. Hicks.

Chani was poisoned by Irulan with unchanged WoL, right before she gave birth.

It's obvious if you read Messiah.

(probably get killed for this one.....agian )

i didnt get that out of it at all..what am i missing

[Crysknife]

Ok, a point by point break down.

1. Chani was a strong Fremen woman, and while women did die during child birth, Chani of all people should have been able to live through it.

2. Paul bargained with Mohiam for Chani's life. He knew she would be killed, but had to try to change the fates. Why bargain with Mohiam if she wasn't the reason for Chani's death?

3. Mohiam and Irulan made an agreement that Chani had to be killed, and Irulan left knowing she was the one to do it.

4. What would be the best poison to use? Something in abundance and easy to obtain on Arrakis, and that could be mistaken for normal spice, which is what Chani was already taking for the pregnancy. Answer; unchanged spice essence, probably slipped into a drink right before or during her birth.

5. Even Chani's attendants during her birth said that death had come quickly and they didn't understand why.

6. Leto and Ghani were preborn. This can only happen if they transmutate an illuminating poison. They were able to accomplish this but Chani wasn't due to the extreme circumstances. Even Paul wonders how this happened without Essence or an overdose.

7. A cut chapter from Road to Dune implies that Irulan did in fact do something to Chani. While not cannon, it gives us insight into what Frank was thinking at the time.

So my conclusion is that Chani was poisoned by Irulan using the Water of Life, right before or during her delivery.

[Nekhrun]

But how long had she been out of contact with Irulan until that happened. She should've died long before she actually did no?

[SandChigger]

Don't forget that Chani wasn't trained as a BG to go through the Agony (but she was a Sayyadina...hmmm...) and she didn't have Atreides genes (outside her womb). Just because she was strong and Fremen doesn't mean she would have known how to transmute the poison. (The Sayyadina thing is worrying, tho.)

[Omphalos]

Sayyadina was just the trip-guide. Would she have any skill at all with the actual transformation because of her position?

[Crysknife]

Even top BG acolytes die during the Agony. Add the pressures of child birth and it would kill anyone. Chenoeh for example. also, Rebecca had no training and she survived.

Paul knew he could keep Chani from dying, but chose this path. He allowed Chani to be killed. Irulan was among the party that they were traveling with at the time. Even Alia knew that Chani didn't have to die. Also, he has visions of Chani with the children being tortured on another path. In his own mind, he picked the best path, and he knew Irulan had to be there.

"Love? Duncan, he had but to step off the track! What matter that the rest
of the universe would have come shattering down behind him? He'd have been safe
. . . and Chani with him!"
"Then . . . why didn't he?"
"For the love of heaven," she whispered. Then, more loudly, she said:
"Paul's entire life was a struggle to escape his Jihad and its deification. At
least, he's free of it. He chose this!"
"Ah, yes -- the oracle." Idaho shook his head in wonder. "Even Chani's
death. His moon fell."
"He was a fool, wasn't he, Duncan?"
Idaho's throat tightened with suppressed grief.
"Such a fool!" Alia gasped her control breaking. "He'll live forever while
we must die!"
"Alia, don't . . . "
"It's just grief," she said, voice low. "Just grief. Do you know what I must
do for him? I must save the life of the Princess Irulan. That one! You should
hear her grief. Wailing, giving moisture to the dead; she swears she loved him
and knew it not. She reviles her Sisterhood, says she'll spend her life teaching
Paul's children."

The obvious way to prevent an unwanted birth was to kill the prospective
mother before conception, the Reverend Mother signaled, returning to the attack.
Of course, Irulan thought. If you decide to spend a certain sum, get as much
for it as you can.
The Reverend Mother's eyes, dark with the blue brilliance of her melange
addiction, stared up at Irulan, measuring, waiting, observing minutiae.
She reads me clearly, Irulan thought with dismay. She trained me and
observed me in that training. She knows I realize what decision has been taken
here. She only observes now to see how I will take this knowledge. Well, I will
take it as a Bene Gesserit and a princess.
Irulan managed a smile, pulled herself erect, thought of the evocative
opening passage of the Litany Against Fear:
"I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that
brings total obliteration. I will face my fear . . . "
When calmness had returned, she thought: Let them spend me. I will show them
what a princess is worth. Perhaps I'll buy them more than they expected.

And let's not forget that Irulan was already adept at giving Chani a contraceptive in her food and drink. It wouldn't have been an easy thing, but the WoL could have been done.

[Tyrant]

then why was it only implied..and not very well ... i mean.. im not ruling it out...but even leto II doesnt mention it ..all he mentions is his mothers spice diet .. and even without the spice essence, she died due to the accelerated pregnancy..doesnt it say that? .. what i got out of it was that she died cause she had to use the spice diet..which sped up her pregnancy..which basically sucked out her life force ... i know normal pregnancies do that to a certain point..my wife could feel her teeth being weakened by the baby absorbing her calcium..i figured chani's pregnancy was like that only fatally worse due to the speed of it

on the other hand irulans chat with mohiam does support your point ...so dont get me wrong

[Crysknife]

The point is, Chani could have lived through the birth. Paul chose the path that allowed his child to live and kept the empire under Atriedes rule, but that also needed Chani to die. And again, Paul bargained with Mohiam to spare her life. Mohiam also played a role in Chani's death.

In a low voice, Paul said: "I wish to bargain with you for the life of my
beloved."
Stilgar cleared his throat.
Alia fingered the handle of the crysknife sheathed at her neck.
The ghola remained at the door, face impassive, metal eyes pointed at the
air above the Reverend Mother's head.
"Have you had a vision of my hand in her death?" the Reverend Mother asked.
She kept her attention on the ghola, oddly disturbed by him. Why should she feel
threatened by the ghola? He was a tool of the conspiracy.
"I know what it is you want from me," Paul said, avoiding her question.

"You reject my proposal?" Paul asked.
"I'm thinking," she said.
And again, she looked at the sister. The optimum cross for this female
Atreides had been lost . . . killed by Paul. Another possibility remained,
however -- one which would cement the desired characteristic into an offspring.
Paul dared offer animal breeding to the Bene Gesserit! How much was he really
prepared to pay for his Chani's life? Would he accept a cross with his own
sister?
Sparring for time, the Reverend Mother said: "Tell me, oh flawless exemplar
of all that's holy, has Irulan anything to say of your proposal?"
"Irulan will do what you tell her to do," Paul growled.
True enough, Mohiam thought. She firmed her jaw, offered a new gambit:
"There are two Atreides."
Paul, sensing something of what lay in the old witch's mind, felt blood
darken his face. "Careful what you suggest," he said.
"You'd just use Irulan to gain your own ends, eh?" she asked.
"Wasn't she trained to be used?" Paul asked.
And we trained her, that's what he's saying, Mohiam thought. Well . . .
Irulan's a divided coin. Was there another way to spend such a coin?
"Will you put Chani's child on the throne?" the Reverend Mother asked.
"On my throne." Paul said. He glanced at wondering suddenly if she knew the
divergent possibilities in this exchange. Alia stood with eyes closed, an odd
stillness-of-person about her. With what inner force did she commune? Seeing his
sister thus, Paul felt he'd been cast adrift. Alia stood on a shore that was
receding from him.
The Reverend Mother made her decision, said: "This is too much for one
person to decide. I must consult with my Council on Wallach. Will you permit a
message?"

And here we see that Paul has his answer at the end of the meeting with Mohiam:

Paul turned, looked at his sister, caught her attention. He knew she would
see tears on his face and wonder at them. Let her wonder. Wondering was a
kindness now. He glanced at the ghola, seeing only Duncan Idaho despite the
metallic eyes. Sorrow and compassion warred in Paul. What might those metal eyes
record?
There are many degrees of sight and many degrees of blindness, Paul thought.
His mind turned to a paraphrase of the passage from the Orange Catholic Bible:
'What senses do we lack that we cannot see another world all around us?'
Were those metal eyes another sense than sight?
Alia crossed to her brother, sensing his utter sadness. She touched a tear
on his cheek with a Fremen gesture of awe, said: "We must not grieve for those
dear to us before their passing."
"Before their passing," Paul whispered. "Tell me, little sister, what is
before?"

[inhuien]

Just because she was strong and Fremen doesn't mean she would have known how to transmute the poison. (The Sayyadina thing is worrying, tho.)

Sayyadina was just the trip-guide. Would she have any skill at all with the actual transformation because of her position?

Not necessarily, although the Reverend Mother Ramallo who preceded Jessica was she BG trained and she agreed to Chani assuming the position of Sayyadina.

"I, the Reverend Mother Ramallo, whose voice speaks as a multitude, say this to you," the old woman said. "It is fitting that Chani enter the Sayyadina."

edit to add

SAYYADINA: feminine acolyte in the Fremen religious hierarchy.

Which doesn't really expand on her potential.

[SandChigger]

I was just going on the fact that Ramallo consecrated her as Sayyadina when Jessica became the sietch's RM, assumed it meant Chani would be next in line (after appropriate training, which Jessica didn't need, given her background).

Is wrong?

[Crysknife]

I think some women would just have a natural ability to pass the Agony. How else could any woman be the first? And again, there's Rebecca. BG training was to weed out their own prejudices and find the women they wanted more than finding a woman that would pass the Agony.

[loremaster]

can i just go back to a point earlier.... did paul REALLY chose chani's death? (Crys?)

I didnt think so, infact, i was always under the impression that chanis death was ineviteable, and he chose to prolong it as far as possible, and the universe be damned.

From his conversations in DM + CoD, i get the feeling paul knew the moment of chani's death and childbirth etc and chose to keep chani with him for as long as possible, knowing that irulan fed the contraceptive. He could have called time on that whenever he wanted to, and yet went along with it.

Anyway, here's my tuppence:

Paul knew from vision chani died during childbirth, he also knew that this was somehow tied into how he must initiate the golden path (if paul took the skin he couldnt concieve etc, also it would alter the universes perception of chani etc. He knew that saving precious years with chani was slowly damning the universe. In the end it became a choice, live selfishly with chani or chose the golden path and save the universe ( this is all retrospectively applied from his conversation with Leto in the desert, CoD).

Paul knew about irulan and the contraceptive, he probably knew about the abortifact too (which are different things, by the way, the contraceptive stopped her getting pregnant, the abortifact was what caused the preborn to become, well, preborn) - i`d say an abortifact was a pretty illuminating poison to a foetus, wouldnt u?)

Therefore, paul chose to keep prolonging the moment of chanis death and living with her selfishly. He COULD have fled to tupile, like alia speculates, but that then meant he couldnt "pass on" the mantle of the golden path (and the potential to save humanity) to his daughter, since she wouldnt be in charge of the empire. He says himself in CoD that is why he couldnt chose the golden path.

But then i`ve just remembered the "its that or humanity will be extinguished.... I did not see that among the options quote from the desert conversation. I could be barking up the wrong tree.

But ultimately i thought paul chose selfishly in DM.

[Crysknife]

He chose the path that would give Chani children. Also, he bargained with Mohiam AFTER Irulan was giving the contraceptive. There is no evidence that Irulan managed to give Chani an abortifact.......but I would say WoL in a drink right before delivery would be an awesome poison. and no, I don't think an abotifact would be an illuminating poison to the twins. Only an Illuminating poison would do the trick, and WoL was easy to obtain in that location.

Paul did permit this, any other path lead to worse suffering....meaning, Chani didn't have to die right then, but he chose the path that killed her. Why else take Irulan and Mohiam into the desert with the group?

Two babies?
Again he stumbled. Chani, Chani, he thought. There was no other way. Chani,
beloved, believe me that this death was quicker for you . . . and kinder. They'd
have held our children hostage, displayed you in a cage and slave pits, reviled
you with the blame for my death. This way . . . this way we destroy them and
save our children.
Children?
Once more, he stumbled.
I permitted this, he thought. I should feel guilty.

But the Reverend Mother was in no mood for excuses. Irulan received explicit
instructions now to meet this new threat. If Chani conceived, an abortifact must
be introduced into her food or drink. Either that, or she must be killed. An
heir to the throne from that source must be prevented at all costs.
An abortifact would be as dangerous as an open attack on the concubine.

It was not a hajra, a journey of seeking. Paul sought nothing here except,
perhaps, a place for her to give birth. He had summoned odd companions for this
journey, she thought -- Bijaz, the Tleilaxu dwarf; the ghola, Hayt, who might be
Duncan Idaho's revenant; Edric, the Guild Steersman-Ambassador; Gaius Helen
Mohiam, the Bene Gesserit Reverend Mother he so obviously hated; Lichna,
Otheym's strange daughter, who seemed unable to move beyond the watchful eyes of
guards; Stilgar, her uncle of the Naibs, and his favorite wife, Harah . . . and
Irulan . . . Alia . . .

Paul already had all the answers.

"I've made no such decision," Paul said. "What I will do is go into the
desert as soon as it can be arranged. Our child will be born in sietch."
"A wise decision," Stilgar intoned.
Alia refused to look at Stilgar. It was a wrong decision. She could feel
this in every cell. Paul must know it. Why had he fixed himself upon such a
path?

This last quote was after the bargaining with Mohiam, and after the contraceptive. Even Alia could feel the danger....but Paul had already chosen his path. Chani could have lived throught the birth, but Paul chose a path where she wouldn't....for good reasons.

[Tyrant]

paul knew about chani's death...he set them on that path...cause his priests wouldve killed him..blamed her..and her and her children suffer for it

[Anathema]

Ok, a point by point break down.

1. Chani was a strong Fremen woman, and while women did die during child birth, Chani of all people should have been able to live through it.

Chani tells Paul that because of having been fed a contraceptive so long the pregnancy would be accelerated and the birth more difficult.

2. Paul bargained with Mohiam for Chani's life. He knew she would be killed, but had to try to change the fates. Why bargain with Mohiam if she wasn't the reason for Chani's death?

I always assumed that this was a bluff in order to break the BG out of the conspiracy.

Why else take Irulan and Mohiam into the desert with the group?

It's possible that things would have turned out the same way without Irulan present, but in the vision that he saw Irulan was there - and he didn't dare take any chances.

It's an interesting theory though that I hadn't thought of before, and it makes sense. The reason that Irulan gets hysterical by the end of the book in that case would be that she thought that she could kill Chani (along with the kids) and have Paul all for herself. Yet she could still honestly say that she loved Paul and that she intended to take care of his kids, since the plan was ruined anyway.