Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Tar intentionally provoked the Honored Matres to destroy Rakis? Because she felt the Sandworms were still exercising control over human destiny? How could the sandworms, even if semi sentient (bringing Dar, Sheeana and Waff to Sietch Tabr), be still controlling humanity?

Superdog wrote:Tar intentionally provoked the Honored Matres to destroy Rakis? Because she felt the Sandworms were still exercising control over human destiny? How could the sandworms, even if semi sentient (bringing Dar, Sheeana and Waff to Sietch Tabr), be still controlling humanity?

Rakis was the only other source of spice besides the Bene Tleilax.

Didn't it also have something to do with Leto's collective pearls of consciousness exerting some type of influence on human events and by allowing Dune's destruction they can completely be free of the Worm?

Nekhrun wrote:Didn't it also have something to do with Leto's collective pearls of consciousness exerting some type of influence on human events and by allowing Dune's destruction they can completely be free of the Worm?

I didn't really buy that, I thought it was just her argument to the BG competition.

Besides, the BG were already in the business of scattering sandtrout far and wide.

I always kind of liked that explanation because I liked that Leto was still really in there. I also like the view that by the time the worms were numerous on other worlds again that humanity would be too plentiful and spread out that there was nothing even his powerful influence could control. Which was his overall goal. Humanity could never be englobed by a sphere o' worms.

Nekhrun wrote:I always kind of liked that explanation because I liked that Leto was still really in there. I also like the view that by the time the worms were numerous on other worlds again that humanity would be too plentiful and spread out that there was nothing even his powerful influence could control. Which was his overall goal. Humanity could never be englobed by a sphere o' worms.

Leto's empire was already "multi-galactic" before The Scattering, which occured BEFORE HoD.

Freakzilla wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:I always kind of liked that explanation because I liked that Leto was still really in there. I also like the view that by the time the worms were numerous on other worlds again that humanity would be too plentiful and spread out that there was nothing even his powerful influence could control. Which was his overall goal. Humanity could never be englobed by a sphere o' worms.

Leto's empire was already "multi-galactic" before The Scattering, which occured BEFORE HoD.

I guess that helps support your theory that it didn't have anything to do with Leto. I'm not so sure that Frank would've misled the readers to that extent though and mean that Leto had no influence or nothing to do with the path events were going down.

Freakzilla wrote:

Superdog wrote:Tar intentionally provoked the Honored Matres to destroy Rakis? Because she felt the Sandworms were still exercising control over human destiny? How could the sandworms, even if semi sentient (bringing Dar, Sheeana and Waff to Sietch Tabr), be still controlling humanity?

Rakis was the only other source of spice besides the Bene Tleilax.

What's the advantage in destroying what was at that point a fairly paltry source of spice?

Did they know that the HM would nuke the Tleilaxu as well, meaning their one captured worm would give them a spice monopoly? Or was it part of the Missionara Protectiva's plan to turn Sheeana into a new religious leader by having her "martyred" on Rakis first?

The BG motivation seems murky to me.

hey, if you ain't banned yet Over There,
I'll give you a cookie to go ask Merritt about it ....

copypasta all back&forth here, please,
all my IPs are cocked-blocked,
and proxies are for pussies & pedophiles ...

My take on it is this: Tar is a heretic to the BG mainline. She has a vision in accord with Leto's, that of humanity finally freeing itself from heros, gods and emperors to such an extent that they will never be bound again.

To that end, she counts the destruction of Rakis a necessary thing - to wipe the physical location of the religious binding force off the face of humanity's cosmos.

(Sorry to interrupt the anticipated Byron-fest, Sandrider I'm also keen to see what he has to mumble.)

I'm with Freak, but probably for slightly different basic reasons.

I've never bought into the idea of the prescient "creating" a future simply by (fore)seeing it; I much prefer the idea of the prescient having to act in some way to cause events to flow into a given path (or fall into a rut?), even if that "action" is actually inaction (not acting to prevent something, or simply choosing to do nothing at all). So the worms, not being conscious "actors" in any human sense, can't really have any influence on the course of human events other than as symbols used by the Rakian Church, etc.

Some of the characters believe the "pearls of awareness" still have some influence, but that doesn't necessarily mean they do.

Superdog wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

Superdog wrote:Tar intentionally provoked the Honored Matres to destroy Rakis? Because she felt the Sandworms were still exercising control over human destiny? How could the sandworms, even if semi sentient (bringing Dar, Sheeana and Waff to Sietch Tabr), be still controlling humanity?

Rakis was the only other source of spice besides the Bene Tleilax.

What's the advantage in destroying what was at that point a fairly paltry source of spice?

Did they know that the HM would nuke the Tleilaxu as well, meaning their one captured worm would give them a spice monopoly? Or was it part of the Missionara Protectiva's plan to turn Sheeana into a new religious leader by having her "martyred" on Rakis first?

The BG motivation seems murky to me.

IMO that was Tarazza's big gamble, with Sheeana as a back-up plan.

SandChigger wrote:I'm with Freak, but probably for slightly different basic reasons.

I've never bought into the idea of the prescient "creating" a future simply by (fore)seeing it; I much prefer the idea of the prescient having to act in some way to cause events to flow into a given path (or fall into a rut?), even if that "action" is actually inaction (not acting to prevent something, or simply choosing to do nothing at all). So the worms, not being conscious "actors" in any human sense, can't really have any influence on the course of human events other than as symbols used by the Rakian Church, etc.

Some of the characters believe the "pearls of awareness" still have some influence, but that doesn't necessarily mean they do.

You could be right... and to play devil's advocate, their worm DID take them to sietch Tabr and Leto's message/spice hoard.

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:My take on it is this: Tar is a heretic to the BG mainline. She has a vision in accord with Leto's, that of humanity finally freeing itself from heros, gods and emperors to such an extent that they will never be bound again.

To that end, she counts the destruction of Rakis a necessary thing - to wipe the physical location of the religious binding force off the face of humanity's cosmos.

(Sorry to interrupt the anticipated Byron-fest, Sandrider I'm also keen to see what he has to mumble.)

So, in your opinion, Tar is keeping the Golden Path, not stopping it or sidestepping it?

mrpsbrk wrote:

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:My take on it is this: Tar is a heretic to the BG mainline. She has a vision in accord with Leto's, that of humanity finally freeing itself from heros, gods and emperors to such an extent that they will never be bound again.

To that end, she counts the destruction of Rakis a necessary thing - to wipe the physical location of the religious binding force off the face of humanity's cosmos.

(Sorry to interrupt the anticipated Byron-fest, Sandrider I'm also keen to see what he has to mumble.)

So, in your opinion, Tar is keeping the Golden Path, not stopping it or sidestepping it?

By this point the Golden Path has been followed and it doesn't really matter what she decides. No matter what Leto's job was finished. Right?

Nekhrun wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:My take on it is this: Tar is a heretic to the BG mainline. She has a vision in accord with Leto's, that of humanity finally freeing itself from heros, gods and emperors to such an extent that they will never be bound again.

To that end, she counts the destruction of Rakis a necessary thing - to wipe the physical location of the religious binding force off the face of humanity's cosmos.

(Sorry to interrupt the anticipated Byron-fest, Sandrider I'm also keen to see what he has to mumble.)

So, in your opinion, Tar is keeping the Golden Path, not stopping it or sidestepping it?

By this point the Golden Path has been followed and it doesn't really matter what she decides. No matter what Leto's job was finished. Right?

The Scattering happened, no matter what, there will always be people somewhere.

Mission accomplished.

No, no, no! Remember, the Golden Path is some sort of mystical philosophy that Leto established for humankind to follow, blah blah blah.

It's almost KJA/McDune level in its obtuseness.

Freakzilla wrote:

Nekhrun wrote:

mrpsbrk wrote:

Aquila ka-Hecate wrote:My take on it is this: Tar is a heretic to the BG mainline. She has a vision in accord with Leto's, that of humanity finally freeing itself from heros, gods and emperors to such an extent that they will never be bound again.

To that end, she counts the destruction of Rakis a necessary thing - to wipe the physical location of the religious binding force off the face of humanity's cosmos.

(Sorry to interrupt the anticipated Byron-fest, Sandrider I'm also keen to see what he has to mumble.)

So, in your opinion, Tar is keeping the Golden Path, not stopping it or sidestepping it?

By this point the Golden Path has been followed and it doesn't really matter what she decides. No matter what Leto's job was finished. Right?

The Scattering happened, no matter what, there will always be people somewhere.

Mission accomplished.

I think Taraza was thinking in accordance with the Tyrant's vision, yes.
Not mystical mumbo-jumbo but a vision of humanity without the great attractor of demigods and demagogues.

As long as Rakis had physical existance, it would exert a binding (religious) effect upon humanity.

That people, Scattered or not, could no longer point to a location in space and chain their minds to it.

SandChigger wrote:I'm with Freak, but probably for slightly different basic reasons.

I've never bought into the idea of the prescient "creating" a future simply by (fore)seeing it; I much prefer the idea of the prescient having to act in some way to cause events to flow into a given path (or fall into a rut?), even if that "action" is actually inaction (not acting to prevent something, or simply choosing to do nothing at all). So the worms, not being conscious "actors" in any human sense, can't really have any influence on the course of human events other than as symbols used by the Rakian Church, etc.

Some of the characters believe the "pearls of awareness" still have some influence, but that doesn't necessarily mean they do.

I am quite a way from HoD(still going through CoD with the occasional going back to Dune for good measure), but this post interests me as it touches the deep explanation as to how a prescient can shape the future...
Is there a thread where this has been talked about? it is quite a thing and I wouldn't want to muddle this topic too much

lotek wrote:

SandChigger wrote:I'm with Freak, but probably for slightly different basic reasons.

I've never bought into the idea of the prescient "creating" a future simply by (fore)seeing it; I much prefer the idea of the prescient having to act in some way to cause events to flow into a given path (or fall into a rut?), even if that "action" is actually inaction (not acting to prevent something, or simply choosing to do nothing at all). So the worms, not being conscious "actors" in any human sense, can't really have any influence on the course of human events other than as symbols used by the Rakian Church, etc.

Some of the characters believe the "pearls of awareness" still have some influence, but that doesn't necessarily mean they do.

I am quite a way from HoD(still going through CoD with the occasional going back to Dune for good measure), but this post interests me as it touches the deep explanation as to how a prescient can shape the future...
Is there a thread where this has been talked about? it is quite a thing and I wouldn't want to muddle this topic too much

Not in HoD, you'd more likely find something in Dune.

He sensed it, the race consciousness that he could not escape. There was the
sharpened clarity, the inflow of data, the cold precision of his awareness. He
sank to the floor, sitting with his back against rock, giving himself up to it.
Awareness flowed into that timeless stratum where he could view time, sensing
the available paths, the winds of the future . . . the winds of the past: the
one-eyed vision of the past, the one-eyed vision of the present and the one-eyed
vision of the future--all combined in a trinocular vision that permitted him to
see time-become-space.
There was danger, he felt, of overrunning himself, and he had to hold onto
his awareness of the present, sensing the blurred deflection of experience, the
flowing moment, the continual solidification of that-which-is into the
perpetual-was.
In grasping the present, he felt for the first time the massive steadiness
of time's movement everywhere complicated by shifting currents, waves, surges,
and countersurges, like surf against rocky cliffs. It gave him a new
understanding of his prescience, and he saw the source of blind time, the source
of error in it, with an immediate sensation of fear.
The prescience, he realized, was an illumination that incorporated the
limits of what it revealed--at once a source of accuracy and meaningful error. A
kind of Heisenberg indeterminacy intervened: the expenditure of energy that
revealed what he saw, changed what he saw.
And what he saw was a time nexus within this cave, a boiling of
possibilities focused here, wherein the most minute action--the wink of an eye,
a careless word, a misplaced grain of sand--moved a gigantic lever across the
known universe. He saw violence with the outcome subject to so many variables
that his slightest movement created vast shiftings in the pattern.
The vision made him want to freeze into immobility, but this, too, was
action with its consequences.
The countless consequences--lines fanned out from this cave, and along most
of these consequence-lines he saw his own dead body with blood flowing from a
gaping knife wound.

yeah I kind of understand how the multiple paths appear to the oracle, with the wave crest hiding the next and all, but in Paul's case he can shape the future at the appropriate nexus because he his the Emperor.
I mean what if the KH was a unknown farmer on a distant planet, would he still be able to influence the future from his backwater planet where he has no contact whatsoever with the outside world?
In Paul's case it is the joining of his power over the Imperium and the Fremen Jihad/religious fervour with his ability to see the possible futures that allows him to have any sort of influence.

If his human/physical power has nothing to do with it, then how would the farmer KH be able to change a future he has no influence on. Unless it is a stretch on the butterfly effect, but I find that explanation a bit to close to blind faith/magic for comfort.

No you're right, the whole "the prescient creates the future" thing is definitely through picking the path he/she wants and taking steps to make it happen.

In your example the farmer KH would just use his prescience to rise to a position where he could exert the power he needed to. If he couldn't get off his planet, then no, he would not be able to effect any serious changes.

yeah that's what I thought, but I could have missed something(I've done it before )

A Thing of Eternity wrote:No you're right, the whole "the prescient creates the future" thing is definitely through picking the path he/she wants and taking steps to make it happen.

In your example the farmer KH would just use his prescience to rise to a position where he could exert the power he needed to. If he couldn't get off his planet, then no, he would not be able to effect any serious changes.

Agreed, I say no. He has to have major influence over the universe.

The farmer KH may be able to prevent his son from impregnating his daughter but he wouldn't be able to make political changes like forcing the Guild to stop at his planet and pick up his crops.

I don't think the BG were breeding a KH just to ask him advice,they wanted him to be emperor.

Can we be so sure that simply observing the future does not affect it? Prescience is described as having a Heisenberg uncertainty to it. As I understand it this uncertainty comes out in conjugate pairs such as energy/time and position/momentum... Anyway Frank writes:

A kind of Heisenberg indeterminacy intervened: the expenditure of energy that revealed what he saw, changed what he saw.

This brings to mind the thought experiment commonly used to depict this indeterminacy. It goes as follows:

Imagine you wish to observe an electron. To do this you must bounce a photon off it and observe the reflected photon. But a high energy (thus short wavelength) photon has a large momentum and thus the transfer of momentum is great, disturbing the momentum of the electron but giving an accurate description of position due to the short wavelength i.e. the uncertainty in position is smeared out across the size of the wavelength. The reverse holds for long wavelengths (low energy, low momentum). This tends to imply that observation affects the observed thing which I believe is incorrect; the reality (apparently!) is that the the uncertainty is inherent, not due to limitations on how we may observe.

My point (finally) is why did Frank feel it necessary to refer to this particular thought experiment? Because the implication described above is what he meant (i.e. 'using' prescience affects the future)?

As far as I can tell the 'expenditure of energy' is Paul utilising his prescient ability, which is then described to have changed what he saw. So it seems to have affected his prescient sight. This would change the landscape of what he saw and thus alter the possible futures that he could choose to follow. This may then in a roundabout way affect the future merely by using the prescient ability.

Caveat: Actually I think I pretty much agree with the version Sandchigger described above, I just like to play devil's advocate.