Notes from a Dune newbie
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- ragabash
- The Benefactor
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Notes from a Dune newbie
Hey, all. I have something of a confession to make; until recently, I had never read any of the Dune novels. Something that made my brother cringe. Here's a few of my observations, for what they're worth.
My brother gave me a copy of Dune for Christmas this past year, so I sat down and read it. And man, was it everything you guys say it is. I was absolutely captivated by it. I must admit the inner monologue method Herbert used seems really stilted and forced at the beginning, but I found myself not even noticing after the first chapter. It's utterly necessary, given the complexity of the back story, and actually works really well.
The book was an amazing combination of action and philosophy, and the idea of taking up the dangerous mantle of mixing government and religion only being safely accomplished by an ubermensch is absolutely fascinating. I also adored the appendix in the back, with the short story about Pardot Keynes (sp?) being something of a savant with Aspergers' syndrome.
So, I eagerly awaited my brother loaning me a copy of Dune Messiah. And I have to admit I was a bit disappointed. It was an amazingly crafted work, as I expected, but I did notice that he seemed to slow the pace of story development down by a few orders of magnitude. This seems natural after reading it; after all, when he wrote Messiah, the success of Dune probably let him know he had the time to develop the story he wanted to at the pace he desired. Nonetheless, the story really did drag for me in that one.
The idea of the ubermensch getting his eyes burned out as foreshadowing for being tossed aside by the universe is really awesome. I was just kind of appalled that it happened in a suburb. It would be like if Jesus were crucified at a Wal-Mart. The choice of venue for such a momentous event in the storyline seems an odd and somewhat disappointing one.
I presume this has been hashed out before here, but I was curious if anyone shared this opinion, or could help me understand that decision by Herbert a little better.
My brother gave me a copy of Dune for Christmas this past year, so I sat down and read it. And man, was it everything you guys say it is. I was absolutely captivated by it. I must admit the inner monologue method Herbert used seems really stilted and forced at the beginning, but I found myself not even noticing after the first chapter. It's utterly necessary, given the complexity of the back story, and actually works really well.
The book was an amazing combination of action and philosophy, and the idea of taking up the dangerous mantle of mixing government and religion only being safely accomplished by an ubermensch is absolutely fascinating. I also adored the appendix in the back, with the short story about Pardot Keynes (sp?) being something of a savant with Aspergers' syndrome.
So, I eagerly awaited my brother loaning me a copy of Dune Messiah. And I have to admit I was a bit disappointed. It was an amazingly crafted work, as I expected, but I did notice that he seemed to slow the pace of story development down by a few orders of magnitude. This seems natural after reading it; after all, when he wrote Messiah, the success of Dune probably let him know he had the time to develop the story he wanted to at the pace he desired. Nonetheless, the story really did drag for me in that one.
The idea of the ubermensch getting his eyes burned out as foreshadowing for being tossed aside by the universe is really awesome. I was just kind of appalled that it happened in a suburb. It would be like if Jesus were crucified at a Wal-Mart. The choice of venue for such a momentous event in the storyline seems an odd and somewhat disappointing one.
I presume this has been hashed out before here, but I was curious if anyone shared this opinion, or could help me understand that decision by Herbert a little better.
GLaDOS wrote: This was a triumph.
I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS.
- Omphalos
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
Actually, the suburban observation is a new one on me. Good call.
I thought the second book was inferior too. Things for me ramped up again in the third, Children, then by God Emperor were as goos as they ever were. Ill loan you children this weekend.
I thought the second book was inferior too. Things for me ramped up again in the third, Children, then by God Emperor were as goos as they ever were. Ill loan you children this weekend.
- Apjak
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
so, you still haven't gotten around to Children of Dune? CoD fixes DM for a lot of people; Dune stands alone, but it stands as an amazing trilogy too. Although, I love all of FH's work, esp. on the Dune series. If you ever finish all sixteen books, you will understand the full vitriol of the people here at what has been done to a brilliant and beloved piece of art.
btw...
btw...
I don't think the author should make the reader do that much work - Kevin J. Anderson
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert
We think we've updated 'Dune' for a modern readership without dumbing it down.- Brian Herbert
There’s an unwritten compact between you and the reader. If someone enters a bookstore and sets down hard earned money(energy) for your book, you owe that person some entertainment and as much more as you can give. - Frank Herbert
- ragabash
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
No, I haven't read it yet. From what Omphalos said up there, it sounds like I'd like it more than Messiah.
I guess my main note is that Messiah could have been distilled down to a more concise, multi-chapter epilogue at the end of Dune.
I guess my main note is that Messiah could have been distilled down to a more concise, multi-chapter epilogue at the end of Dune.
GLaDOS wrote: This was a triumph.
I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS.
- SandChigger
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
The "suburban" observation is a good one. Maybe FH wanted to remind readers that the most important stuff happens outside the throne room (halls of power, etc etc).
And if you ask me, Jesus is crucified in Wal-Mart every day of the week.
And if you ask me, Jesus is crucified in Wal-Mart every day of the week.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
Those suburbs were build for veterans of the Jihad.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- Superdog
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
I remember being confused when I first read Messiah, all this talk about Dune tarots and bizarro pregnancies. The plot against Paul is actually like four separate plots within each other.
Anyway, when I read it a second time everything cleared up and I appreciated it much more. I've heard people say it's basically Dune's fourth act, which I think is a good description.
Anyway, when I read it a second time everything cleared up and I appreciated it much more. I've heard people say it's basically Dune's fourth act, which I think is a good description.
- inhuien
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
Dune, Dune Messiah and Children of Dune should be viewed as one story arc, as intended by the author.Superdog wrote:I've heard people say it's basically Dune's fourth act, which I think is a good description.
- A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
Messiah is becoming one of my favourites, but I can see why most people don't have the same impression, I sure didn't the first time I read it.
As for the suburb thing, it might have just been the right place in the plot for that to happen, everything else in the scene fit best within that setting. If FH had a more subtle reason behind that location choice, I'd say it might have been to symbolize how anti-climactic the whole thing was for Paul, seeing it all happen just as he'd expected. What better location than a suburb for that?
As for the suburb thing, it might have just been the right place in the plot for that to happen, everything else in the scene fit best within that setting. If FH had a more subtle reason behind that location choice, I'd say it might have been to symbolize how anti-climactic the whole thing was for Paul, seeing it all happen just as he'd expected. What better location than a suburb for that?
- SandRider
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
Messiah's long been my favorite - I like the short time period over which the story takes place
(my favorite stories are those like that - everything happening over a day or so, while giving you
all the backstory & characterization along the way)
anti-climatic is a good word for it - and probably Frank's whole intention with this short piece -
the messiah loses his eyes while lying behind a curb in a housing project he built for his
veterans - (Fremen who had never lived in houses before) - the victim of a plot by some of
those veterans who had become as disillusioned with paul as he had of himself .... and
then there's Bijaz ....
(my favorite stories are those like that - everything happening over a day or so, while giving you
all the backstory & characterization along the way)
anti-climatic is a good word for it - and probably Frank's whole intention with this short piece -
the messiah loses his eyes while lying behind a curb in a housing project he built for his
veterans - (Fremen who had never lived in houses before) - the victim of a plot by some of
those veterans who had become as disillusioned with paul as he had of himself .... and
then there's Bijaz ....
................ I exist only to amuse myself ................
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
I personally feel that this message board, Jacurutu, is full of hateful folks who don't know
how to fully interact with people. ~ "Spice Grandson" (Bryon Merrit) 08 June 2008
- lotek
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
yeah I am rereading DM just after having finished it, i agree this anticlimax is probably what puts off most people
but again it is the mark of a great writer to take that risk, and the mark of a deserving reader to be able to endure the fall of one's hero
and nice to see you here again sandrider, funny enough i was randomly reading Dune and ended up on the chapter of Paul's first worm riding, when he becomes... a sandrider and I thought "now where is our very own rider of the sands?"
you've missed some action and I am banned from dungnovels!
but again it is the mark of a great writer to take that risk, and the mark of a deserving reader to be able to endure the fall of one's hero
and nice to see you here again sandrider, funny enough i was randomly reading Dune and ended up on the chapter of Paul's first worm riding, when he becomes... a sandrider and I thought "now where is our very own rider of the sands?"
you've missed some action and I am banned from dungnovels!
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Hunchback Jack
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
I think part of the problem is that things end pretty bleakly in DM, and you don't get a very specific picture of what Paul was *avoiding*. It's hard to understand why Paul would ever choose that outcome when you don't fully understand what the alternatives were.
CoD explains a lot of that, and I think DM becomes a better novel with CoD following it. I now like DM a *lot*. Some of the writing is just fantastic as well.
Edited to add: I don't really agree with DM being the fourth part of Dune. It definitely seems like a separate part to me; the tone and pacing is different, and we're really jumping ahead to see the consequences of Paul's choices in Dune.
HBJ
CoD explains a lot of that, and I think DM becomes a better novel with CoD following it. I now like DM a *lot*. Some of the writing is just fantastic as well.
Edited to add: I don't really agree with DM being the fourth part of Dune. It definitely seems like a separate part to me; the tone and pacing is different, and we're really jumping ahead to see the consequences of Paul's choices in Dune.
HBJ
"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
- Iain Banks
- Carl Sagan
I'm still very proud of The Quarry but … let's face it; in the end the real best way to sign off would have been with a great big rollicking Culture novel.
- Iain Banks
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
I think the way you're plunged right into Paul's failure in DM is exactly how FH intended readers to feel after the end of Dune when they felt like Paul could do anything. Trust those monkeys running the estate to go and ruin that.
- lotek
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
it feels as though they(esp, that retard of a hack)held a grudge towards Frank for ruining their perfect hero for them, they crave that YA shit of flawlessness, I believe they would feel hurt by that because to know a hero of fiction who can be perfect(if its creator so chooses)can fail, means a real person will definitely fail too at some point.
That means facing your own potential failure, and the bigger the ego the bigger the feel of the blow..
I too resented that Paul would not be that awesome fighting machine destroying the bad guys for revenge, but I was 10 or 12 at the time and it didn't last long when I understood the (terrible) purpose awaiting him.
That means facing your own potential failure, and the bigger the ego the bigger the feel of the blow..
I too resented that Paul would not be that awesome fighting machine destroying the bad guys for revenge, but I was 10 or 12 at the time and it didn't last long when I understood the (terrible) purpose awaiting him.
Spice is the worm's gonads.
- Tleszer
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
lotek, you get out of 5!
I gave out another 4/5? Ruh-row. Hope I'm not SC's "Shill Sockpuppet!"
I gave out another 4/5? Ruh-row. Hope I'm not SC's "Shill Sockpuppet!"
DUNE, as interpreted by a blue man with a green tushie
- SandChigger
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
Ooh! I Knew I was forgetting something!
Shill be coming 'round the mountain...
(I seem to be musically declined again. )
Shill be coming 'round the mountain...
(I seem to be musically declined again. )
- lotek
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Re: Notes from a Dune newbie
Tleszer wrote:lotek, you get out of 5!
I gave out another 4/5? Ruh-row. Hope I'm not SC's "Shill Sockpuppet!"
so do I
It ws an easy analysis since i just had to remember how I felt when first reading DM
Chig I found the perfect one for you!
Salty leave , salty leave
tell me the one about the friend you knew
and the last good night that we toasted too.
Salty leave,
stay for me, stay for me
We drank wine in the matinee
and the spotlight showed what I chased away
Stay for me
She saw my comb over, her hourglass body
she has problems with drinking milk
and being school tardy
She'll loan you her toothbrush
she'll bartend your party
Kill me, kill me
I called and called, but I can't get through,
said he's on his own, but his own is you
Kill me
dunno who that is but how weird is the coincidence?
Man I lUUURRVV google!
Spice is the worm's gonads.