With all due respect, that's just silly. Of course Ix would be continually researching and modifying EVERYTHING in the Duniverse. That's what they do. And they DO develop navigation devices later on in the series which would imply a rather in-depth understanding of space-folding tech. And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.A Thing of Eternity wrote:The way I see it, unless it was with Ix's help there is simply no way they'd be tweaking anything. That kind of tech would almost certainly have required computer assistance to develope and fine tune, so I would guess that it was in effect before the Jihad, then when the Jihad wiped out the computers they just switched over the navigation systems. From that time forward they were almost certainly just blindly copying the original designs, I would assume (note the word assume) that the mechanics that go into folding space would be far to complex to decypher and understand for someone un-aided by a computer.
Maybe mentats would be an exception, but still, I'm guessing that very little tinkering would have taken place post-Jihad.
Just my opinion.
Legends of Dune violating Canon
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- Eru
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
If there's anything I've learned from working with monkeys, it's that there is no problem which cannot be solved by flinging poo at it.
- A Thing of Eternity
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Fair enough, it was a half developed thought as I typed it, I was thinking of the guild only after first, then remembered Ix. I'm not convinced the technology would have changed in any substantial way though.Eru wrote:With all due respect, that's just silly. Of course Ix would be continually researching and modifying EVERYTHING in the Duniverse. That's what they do. And they DO develop navigation devices later on in the series which would imply a rather in-depth understanding of space-folding tech. And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.A Thing of Eternity wrote:The way I see it, unless it was with Ix's help there is simply no way they'd be tweaking anything. That kind of tech would almost certainly have required computer assistance to develope and fine tune, so I would guess that it was in effect before the Jihad, then when the Jihad wiped out the computers they just switched over the navigation systems. From that time forward they were almost certainly just blindly copying the original designs, I would assume (note the word assume) that the mechanics that go into folding space would be far to complex to decypher and understand for someone un-aided by a computer.
Maybe mentats would be an exception, but still, I'm guessing that very little tinkering would have taken place post-Jihad.
Just my opinion.
- chanilover
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
volenti non fit injuria. That's what Hyppo says to all the boys.SandChigger wrote:Oooh ... Latin! Sling some more at us! The other lawyers around here are stingy with it.Lionel Horsepackage wrote:cum grano salis
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- Freakzilla
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
The INM was a joint Ixian-Guild project.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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- chanilover
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
What's an INM?Freakzilla wrote:The INM was a joint Ixian-Guild project.
"You and your buddies and that b*tch Mandy are nothing but a gang of lying, socially maladjusted losers." - St Hypatia of Arrakeen.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Ixian Navigation Machine
WHAT IF YOU NO LONGER HEAR THE MUSIC OF LIFE?
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!
MEMORIES ARE NOT ENOUGH UNLESS THEY CALL YOU TO NOBLE PURPOSE!
- Freakzilla
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Abbreviationschanilover wrote:What's an INM?Freakzilla wrote:The INM was a joint Ixian-Guild project.
Know it, learn it, live it...
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- chanilover
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Time for a re-read!
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- inhuien
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.Eru wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.
Last edited by inhuien on 11 May 2010 11:55, edited 1 time in total.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
I can think of only like four Ixians appearing in the books, Bronso, Malky, Hwi and the Inquisitors. None were mentats that I remember.inhuien wrote:But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.Eru wrote:A Thing of Eternity wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.
Besides, mentats were illegal durring Leto II's reign.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
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- Eru
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
So? The Bene Gesserit employed Mentats during Leto's reign. At least one of Leto's Duncans was a Mentat. There were still Mentats during that period.Freakzilla wrote:I can think of only like four Ixians appearing in the books, Bronso, Malky, Hwi and the Inquisitors. None were mentats that I remember.inhuien wrote:But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.Eru wrote:A Thing of Eternity wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.
Besides, mentats were illegal durring Leto II's reign.
*edit* Any of Leto's Duncans being mentats is from DE isn't it?
If there's anything I've learned from working with monkeys, it's that there is no problem which cannot be solved by flinging poo at it.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Yeah, Anteac who tried like hell to hide it, but Leto had a special mission for her. Even though he talked of destroying them, I think Leto had some tollerance for the BG.Eru wrote:So? The Bene Gesserit employed Mentats during Leto's reign.Freakzilla wrote:I can think of only like four Ixians appearing in the books, Bronso, Malky, Hwi and the Inquisitors. None were mentats that I remember.inhuien wrote:But is it mentioned. That's all I was wondering.Eru wrote:A Thing of Eternity wrote:And why wouldn't everyone, including the Ixians, employ Mentats? They are functionally a replacement for computers in the Duniverse, and with the incredible capacity and potential of the human mind, I see no reason Mentats couldn't surpass the capabilities of computers.
Besides, mentats were illegal durring Leto II's reign.
Yeah. Leto insisted on them being the unaltered original in GEoD and left him with the Fish Speakers for a while until they were sure.At least one of Leto's Duncans was a Mentat. There were still Mentats during that period.
*edit* Any of Leto's Duncans being mentats is from DE isn't it?
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- Eru
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
I'm still not convinced that Mentats wouldn't be commonly utilized during Leto's reign, albeit in a clandestine fashion. Prohibition of a practice doesn't always lead to it's decline
If there's anything I've learned from working with monkeys, it's that there is no problem which cannot be solved by flinging poo at it.
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Plus, he tolerated the Ixians because of the illegal toys they made for him and no-ships were part of his plan. They probably could get away with using computers openly on their homeworlds.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- Eru
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
True. The INM is really just a computer, right?
If there's anything I've learned from working with monkeys, it's that there is no problem which cannot be solved by flinging poo at it.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
I assumed so. FH never gives details about it. I like to think it wasn't AI,though. However it's hard to imagine it being able to duplicate the function of a Navigator without AI.Eru wrote:True. The INM is really just a computer, right?
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- Lionel Horsepackage
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Precisely. Their very existence and their technology is a great example of the "Unexpected Hanging Paradox" (i.e.,the day of the hanging will be a surprise, so it cannot happen at all, so therefore it will be a surprise). Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.Freakzilla wrote:Plus, he tolerated the Ixians because of the illegal toys they made for him and no-ships were part of his plan. They probably could get away with using computers openly on their homeworlds.
As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.
- Freakzilla
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
The Ixians built the first no-field for him (Dar-es-balat).Lionel Horsepackage wrote:Precisely. Their very existence and their technology is a great example of the "Unexpected Hanging Paradox" (i.e.,the day of the hanging will be a surprise, so it cannot happen at all, so therefore it will be a surprise). Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.Freakzilla wrote:Plus, he tolerated the Ixians because of the illegal toys they made for him and no-ships were part of his plan. They probably could get away with using computers openly on their homeworlds.
As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
- SadisticCynic
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
Further to space-folding technology; I recall something in the later books to the effect that people knew and used Holtzmann's equations (which defined a unifying theory of physics) but simply didn't understand them. So I wonder what not understanding them means. To use them they must know what the different variables and constants refer to, so perhaps they simply didn't have a physical interpretation for them. In any case they could still tinker with different numbers etc...
Ah English, the language where pretty much any word can have any meaning! - A Thing of Eternity
- merkin muffley
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
I'm lost. Are you saying that Leto should have been able to detect the No-Room because of the Room-ness of every other thing and event, including the construction of the No-Room itself? Leto needs Ixian devices to see things and his prescience isn't omnipotent.Lionel Horsepackage wrote: Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.
As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.
Why do I feel like I have no idea what I'm talking about, and my brain hurts...
- Freakzilla
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
merkin muffley wrote:I'm lost. Are you saying that Leto should have been able to detect the No-Room because of the Room-ness of every other thing and event, including the construction of the No-Room itself? Leto needs Ixian devices to see things and his prescience isn't omnipotent.Lionel Horsepackage wrote: Leto can't see the No-Room because it's a No-Room, and he can't see those, for whatever technological reasons there are. But he also wasn't able to see the construction of the No-Room, which, presumably, he should have been able to see.
As in, at some point, the a No-Room is its components, which are not a No-Room, and thus, not hidden from prescience, so Leto should have been able to see those. Yet, somehow, he did not. I postulate that he did not because this was an independent action on his part.
Why do I feel like I have no idea what I'm talking about, and my brain hurts...
Leto did notice when things disappeared into no-fields and said as much. Also, the INM was built inside a no-field.
Paul of Dune was so bad it gave me a seizure that dislocated both of my shoulders and prolapsed my anus.
~Pink Snowman
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
hehehe - he said cum.SandChigger wrote:Oooh ... Latin! Sling some more at us! The other lawyers around here are stingy with it.Lionel Horsepackage wrote:cum grano salis
THINK CRITICALLY
- lotek
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
someone was talking about seamen on telly last night
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- SandChigger
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
I drove through Seaman just earlier today...
- lotek
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Re: Legends of Dune violating Canon
man I hope you have good windscreen wipers
Spice is the worm's gonads.