Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Since Frank Herbert is so interested in incorporating different religions/beliefs together, could he have possibly intended Fremen to suggest this name?

I think he was suggesting "free men". What do the Fremen have to do with the Free Masons?

Free men is the common thought, and obviously closer than freemason. I would think FH would have included some of the freemason symbology which is very recognisable if that had been his intent.

Welcome to Jacurutu, you should introduce yourself in the introductions sub-forum!

I'm struggling to find any similarities between the Fremen and Freemasons. Please elaborate, shishi.

Who gives a shit?

Nekhrun wrote:Who gives a shit?

That is a trick question.

Nekhrun wrote:Who gives a shit?

Did you mean shitshit?

(Sorry, shishi, but your user name looks like the Japanese kids' word for pee-pee. And what is that signature supposed to mean?)

The Fremen are viewed by the Harkonnens as a secret society, and they don't believe that there are very many of them on Arrakis, and look at their beliefs/abilities as inferior. As for their rituals/symbology, I am not sure there are many similarities except perhaps their refinements of measurement (such as water). They also gather and belong to sietches, similar to lodges or temples.

I really don't know much about Free Masons in detail, but came across references to them in Eyes Wide Shut, and was curious as to why Kubrick put them in there.
There is one hidden message on the streetwalk that is very suggestive. It contains names of an author and director who published prominent works in 1996 (The year Eyes Wide Shut started shooting) on Free Masonry. The book is about development of Masonry in Ancient Egypt and the film (released in the UK) details the initiation of a European into a secret Masonic establishment.

BTW, my username is Chinese.

I think the connection is medieval "freeman" law under the Franks in Europe following the Romans.
Classic "Frank" Herbert with a twinkle in his eye...

I'll just go ahead out on that limb here and call this one a Wingnut from the get-go ...

how weird is it to have Martian Bob pop back up in today's discussion, then this Zenbabbler ...

merkin oughta chime in here with his newfacedancer impression for the Loony Trifecta .....



meanwhile, in the real world ....

shishi wrote:They also gather and belong to sietches, similar to lodges or temples.

So do beavers. And they're big on creating giant caches of water, too.

I really don't know much about Free Masons in detail...

I don't, either, but I've never been all that interested in them. I kinda seriously doubt their history goes all the way back to Ancient Egypt, though. Either way, the Bene Gesserit would seem the better group for a comparison with Masons, since they were also a secretive organization that did last for millennia. (I've seen most of the Kubrick flick, but wasn't that excited by it.)

BTW, my username is Chinese.

Sùre, súre.


Edit: Gah! Quote tag malfuction!

By the way, I forgot to ask if you've looked for any of Onasander's posts here or over on Dune Novels? It might be interesting to hear your take on some of his ideas.

shishi wrote: I really don't know much about Free Masons in detail

you're joking

I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest that any "Masonic" symbolism in Eyes Wide Shut is totally superficial. I think they grabbed a lot of ideas from different conspiracy theories to create the mysterious orgy cult. And when you're talking about "Free Masons" you're probably referring to the Mason-Illuminati Conspiracy Theory, or something out of Foucault's Pendulum.

Eyes Wide Shut is about a marriage. The cult is just a story device, and is a pastiche created out of ideas from lots of different conspiracy thoeries, particularly conspiracy theories about rich people having orgies. The Latin mass played backwards is in there because it sounds cool.

That music is one of the most striking features of the orgy cult in Eyes Wide Shut. What does a Latin mass played backwards have to do with Freemasons? Absolutely nothing (or is this the Illuminati thing again?) If Stanley Kubrick wanted to make a movie that said something about Freemasons, you would know it. I don't think he's the kind of filmmaker that throws in references without doing something specific with them. He definitely has ambiguity in his films, but you always know what the ambiguity is about. You wonder what the fuck is going on at the end of 2001, but he hits you over the head with the image of the fetus aligning with the planets. He's not going to have his main character walk past a street sign that says something important.

I don't think Freemasons have much to do with Eyes Wide Shut, and I think they got nothing to do with Fremen. Although Fremen 3=====D~ ~ ~ Semen?

Your move, shishi...

Freakzilla wrote:What do the Fremen have to do with the Free Masons?

Nothing.

Boring troll is boring.

Wait a sec...
Are we talking about the Fremen or Freedmenmen?

I thought we was talkin' about Kinky Friedman,
but he ain't a Mason ... them Masons don't let
in Jews ...

I've always thought of Fremen as a play on the words Free men. Because that is what they are. Even though others tried to subdue them and even erradicate them; they remained free.

And this is a very simplefied view of the situation but I've looked on Freman kind of like the Native Americans or native tribs of other countries and the Harkonnens and even the Atredies as the white men/European of old. The Harkonnens looked down on the Fremen and thought them savages, but the Freman's culture - different from the main stream -- allowed them to survive on a harsh planet.

Like I said, very over simplified, but Fremen ---> Free Mason...NO Connection

Fremen ~= Free Mason?

Negative. The BT are probably the closest comparable social entity in Dune to Masonry, and that's definitely stretching it beyond reason to force a fit. The BG are a close second (more or less - still an extreme stretch beyond elastic equilibrium).

I'd venture to say that the Fremen (at their pinnacle of social development/involvement) are closer to real-world historical Jews than the muslim/buddhist faith applied to them. The Fremen are in rewind - back to basic of the basics - compared to others labeled similarly (terms of belief) in Dune. Don't forget the mormons, either.

I humbly refer you to the Leto II and the GP (specifically/non-specifically: Heretics).

I read somewhere that Fremen was based on Fremder, German for stranger. The idea being that Frank was trying to portray a society which was completely alien to most Americans in the 60s. No idea if this is true or not.

Hey... have we shooshooed shishi away?

I hope so ... I'm just not in the mood for more babbling wingnuts with a bunch of fucked-up
ideas about Frank's books ... that's what the Official Corporate Dune forum is for ... we got real work to do around here ....

Awesome!! It’s just what I need!! Thanks!..

abdulshaz wrote:Awesome!! It’s just what I need!! Thanks!..

Um... what is?

Getting an awfully strong spam vibe from this one... anyone else, too?

That's spam.

I'm thinking about trying the Erection Pack!

Erection Pack?

What are you talking about? Are you seeing something that I'm not? (I don't see any links or images, etc.)

Huh?

SandChigger wrote:Erection Pack?

What are you talking about? Are you seeing something that I'm not? (I don't see any links or images, etc.)

Huh?

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