baudib wrote:The idea that M&D were anything other than advanced/improved/independent face dancers is frankly laughable. Frank could not spell it out more clearly.
From an earlier chapter:
Somewhere out there in the Infinite Universe,a jury had brought in a verdict against the Honored Matres. Law and its managers had not prevailed for the hunters. He suspected that his vision had shown him two of the jurors. And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale's Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.
Interesting thread.
I would just like to point out that the quote above still leaves room for conjecture "And If they were Face Dancers..."
THIS quote with all the OTHER hints in the original books left NO ROOM for more conjecture about it, hackboy!
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and wrote a Dune Novel."
baudib wrote:The idea that M&D were anything other than advanced/improved/independent face dancers is frankly laughable. Frank could not spell it out more clearly.
From an earlier chapter:
Somewhere out there in the Infinite Universe,a jury had brought in a verdict against the Honored Matres. Law and its managers had not prevailed for the hunters. He suspected that his vision had shown him two of the jurors. And if they were Face Dancers, they were not Scytale's Face Dancers. Those two people behind the shimmering net belonged to no one but themselves.
Interesting thread.
I would just like to point out that the quote above still leaves room for conjecture "And If they were Face Dancers..."
You should totally do a video blog about that. All the KJA Special Buddies are doin' it.
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RBP - yes, that particular passage, from the point of view of a character trying to figure out what D&M are, is merely conjecture. The rest of the passages we've discussed from the point of view of D&M themselves leave more or less zero doubt that they are descended from face dancers.
redbugpest wrote:I agree that, at that point, there is no other compelling plot seed for what M&D are at this point.
Sigh. Are there any other passages in the final two books that contain "other compelling plot seed"s for what Marty and Daniel are?
I'm serious; there's a case that has to be made here. There are very strong suggestions - the strongest from M&D's own statements about themselves - that they are descended from Face Dancers. If you don't accept that as "proof", then provide quotes from the books to to support alternative theories about their nature. If you cannot, any argument that they are something else - disguised robots from the Butlerian Jihad, say - is far more speculative and baseless that the "unproven" Face Dancer theory.
And "Frank didn't say they weren't robots" is not an argument. Frank didn't say they weren't a lot of things; he *did* imply strongly that they were Face Dancers.
HBJ
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Hunchback Jack wrote:And "Frank didn't say they weren't robots" is not an argument. Frank didn't say they weren't a lot of things; he *did* imply strongly that they were Face Dancers.
Keith loves that one. He uses it in multiple places.
Of course, being socially retarded, he doesn't realize it makes him look like the world's biggest, whitest, softest pussy. It's a complete "I'm a sensitive artist who's never done a hard day's work in my life" shot.
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that photo makes me unreasonably angry ....
like that avatar Simon used to use ....
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Hunchback Jack wrote:That's certainly true. It's just conjecture at that point in the narrative.
I recently reread chapter house dune, and I was specifically paying attention to the passages that talk about Marty and Daniel, and of the enemy of many faces. Almost nothing is spelled out explicitly, but the hints that they were face dancers becomes more and more compelling until martys and daniels final conversation makes their nature clear.
So you can argue that these specific passages aren't conclusive, but the books as a whole makes it clear what FH intended. Even if you argue that their being face dancers it not proven, there's certainly no indication that they're anything else.
HBJ
I agree that, at that point, there is no other compelling plot seed for what M&D are at this point.
Gotta add my agreement here. JMO but the whole reason that last scene with M&D is even possible is because Herbert spent pages, plot and probably a lot of thought setting it up through the evolution of the face dancers in CD. Their existence seems to be the unanticipated consequence of Face Dancers being able to assume the personae of those that they kill. I don't think he would throw away the work it took to build to that revelation (while hiding it in plain sight in that typically Herbertian way) just to take a massive turn in another direction. I just don't see him wasting well earned capital like that. It seems he began deliberately building that road in CD for a purpose.
On a more intuitive level, it also feels like Herbert. From Ix and its robots to the BG and Paul, people have a habit of losing control of their creations in the Dune universe. The Tleilaxu losing control of their Face Dancers seems to fit that mold.