Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Kojiro wrote:The Pentagon claims it was a plane. Yeah right. And I'm Queen Elizabeth.

You know what? From the footage I saw it does look exactly like a plane flying almost directly towards the veiwer. The contrail looks a bit heavy/large for a plane is my main complaint with that explanation.

Allegedly, Japanese intelligence says it was a Chinese missile from a Chinese submarine.

Kojiro wrote:Allegedly, Japanese intelligence says it was a Chinese missile from a Chinese submarine.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:

Kojiro wrote:The Pentagon claims it was a plane. Yeah right. And I'm Queen Elizabeth.

You know what? From the footage I saw it does look exactly like a plane flying almost directly towards the veiwer. The contrail looks a bit heavy/large for a plane is my main complaint with that explanation.

I've tried really, really hard to force my brain to visualize it that way and I just can't. I also don't like the way that the trail begins to break up along its length....that looks like layers of the atmosphere more than just localized variations in wind speed/shear. Look at the differences in spread and distortion of the column's shape, not just "wind dragging" of the column from side to side.

I guess it's possible that they're right. I'm just having a lot of trouble fitting that into what I'm seeing. I guess being aloft and the type of camera/zoom used could help cause this issue....I've spent a lot of time looking at contrails when I've lived in areas like a lake or the coast where the sky is big and you see these sorts of sunset scenes....nothing ever looked remotely like that. And I'm sure that I've seen thousands if not tens of thousands of contrails over the years...at least a few hundred of them from mountaintops or in aircraft.

The "glow" at the head of the column seems too bright and at the wrong angle for a sunlight reflection at that hour, particularly if the plane story is true in terms of geometry of the objects involved in the video (helicopter, craft/object being observed, thrust column, sky, background & foreground clouds, ground and horizon). The speed at which the column is propelled out from, and the way it billows behind, the craft seems wrong for an aircraft.

I'm open to being wrong, and I find a lot of the conspiracy theories to be a bit half-baked....but I'm really having trouble accepting the current explanation that we're being handed.

On CNN the other morning they showed a very similar "missile launch" caught by a webcam on the beach just a day or two earlier.

It was that daily flight from Honolulu.

That or... moon squid shooting at new tentacled immigrants coming in from Mars!

(I mean, let's be honest, shall we? Once those Martian squid move in, there goes the neighborhood. )

Shaitan wrote: The "glow" at the head of the column seems too bright and at the wrong angle for a sunlight reflection at that hour, particularly if the plane story is true in terms of geometry of the objects involved in the video (helicopter, craft/object being observed, thrust column, sky, background & foreground clouds, ground and horizon). The speed at which the column is propelled out from, and the way it billows behind, the craft seems wrong for an aircraft.

Yeah, really, that is one of the stronger points about it being a missile. I've never known a jet (especially one that's allegedly approaching me) to have a glow at the head of the contrail like that. Seriously, it's not that far fetched to imagine that the government lied. Governments have lied for centuries, its nothing new. I think the Pentagon was embarrassed that another Chinese sub snuck up on them.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... faced.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

SandChigger wrote:(I mean, let's be honest, shall we? Once those Martian squid move in, there goes the neighborhood. )

Martian squid are decent people.

Yeah? Would you want your son or daughter to marry one?



Um... if the Chinese could get a sub in that close and launch a missile, do you think they would reveal that capability now, when it doesn't really benefit them, or would they wait until a time when it might actually prove decisive in some conflict? Do you consider the Chinese government and military to be idiots? Have there been any reports of the US military having gone on sudden all-out alert following the supposed "launch"? (A missile would show up on radar after launch, no?)


(Something else to take into consideration: that crazy old Texas bitch over on Amazon is arguing the same Chinese sub shit. )

Maybe the Chinese want you to think they're stupid.

It was the mighty Tidwell preparing ..... Preparing for what? Now that is the question.

SandChigger wrote:Yeah? Would you want your son or daughter to marry one?



Um... if the Chinese could get a sub in that close and launch a missile, do you think they would reveal that capability now, when it doesn't really benefit them, or would they wait until a time when it might actually prove decisive in some conflict? Do you consider the Chinese government and military to be idiots? Have there been any reports of the US military having gone on sudden all-out alert following the supposed "launch"? (A missile would show up on radar after launch, no?)


(Something else to take into consideration: that crazy old Texas bitch over on Amazon is arguing the same Chinese sub shit. )

Considering they've made threats about wiping Los Angeles off the map, the mentality of the Chinese government is rather interesting. No, I don't consider them to be idiots, but I do consider them to be ballsy. They've already revealed their capability to bypass our sensors with that wargames incident. They're really pissed off at our Federal Reserve's quantitative easing where it'll just print $600 billion from thin air to "cover the debt," nevermind that Japan did something similar and got itself in deep shit. The U.S. dollar is more connected to the global economy than the yin though, and the Chinese hold a LOT of our debt, meaning they wouldn't want their investment to become worthless.

And whether a David Icke devotee agrees or disagrees has little bearing on the issue. Sometimes the insane have lucid moments.

Wasn't this UFO (lol) moving away from California? And if it was a missile, wouldn't it be moving too fast to be seen for as long as it was?

Mandy wrote:Wasn't this UFO (lol) moving away from California? And if it was a missile, wouldn't it be moving too fast to be seen for as long as it was?

You forget how big of an area they were viewing. Missiles don't travel at the speed of light and it was viewed from a distance, so no... it would not be moving "too fast to be seen as long as it was." According to the plane proponents, it was moving "toward" California and had the "illusion" of moving away "because of the sunset."

Have you ever seen these sort of videos on YouTube? The ignorant call them "UFO wormholes" but they're actually night time missile tests. They stay in view for a pretty good length due to the distance involved.

Kojiro wrote:And whether a David Icke devotee agrees or disagrees has little bearing on the issue. Sometimes the insane have lucid moments.

Yeah, but she goes off the meds again pretty quickly. Almost like clockwork.

Meh, believe what you choose.

I don't watch youtube videos because I'm on dialup, but the helicopter pilot says he watched the thing for 10 minutes.

That sounds about right. That video there is 8 minutes long. Trust me, it's not that unusual for a missile to be seen that long.

Or a plane coming in from Honolulu.

I have never seen a plane with that big of a contrail.

Ah, well then, there is it, proof positive it had to have been a missile, couldn't have been a plane. My profoundest apologies!

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but here's some food for thought. The editor of Jane's Missiles and Rockets, Doug Richardson, states that it was a missile.

But Doug Richardson, the editor of Jane’s Missiles and Rockets, examined the video for the Times of London and said he was left with little doubt.

"It’s a solid propellant missile," he told the Times. "You can tell from the efflux [smoke]."

From: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/11/ ... 0379.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jane's Missiles and Rockets is THE authority in identifying stuff like this for the layman. I'd frankly trust Jane more than I'd trust the Pentagon. Seriously, how is it that it takes the Pentagon hours to identify a "plane from Honolulu?" Planes have flight patterns, they should have been able to identify it immediately, instead they were shrugging their shoulders for a while.

as the military learned from 1948 on, it is easiest and most effective to deny things
and let the fringe rumor-mill run the incident into the ground;

after WWII, the American Government was not totally sure which Nazi Scientists they had,
and which Nazi Scientists the Soviet had ... since the Cold War was on, there was no communication
between the two sides, and so rumor and speculation took the place of intelligence, and the Red Scare
replaced rational thinking ....

the Nazi Scientists the Americans had were of course interrogated, or "debriefed" - of special
interest, of course, was any information they had on projects they themselves had not been
directly working on, but had heard about, or were doing supplemental research for ...

this allowed the Americans to cross-reference and try to determine what some of the projects
that the Nazi Scientists they did not have in custody were working on - with the speculation then
that the Soviets had custody of those scientists ...

one such project was a Vertical-Takeoff Aircraft - Allied Bombers penetrated German airspace with impunity
by 1944, and bombed German airstrips a faster rate than they could be repaired; during the last phase of the
war, the Luftwaffe was mostly out of the game because of this ...

German High Command sent down orders to one the teams working on jet engines to develop an aircraft that
would not require an airstrip to take off; there is also an alternate theory that this project had already been
underway, but by 1944 had been turned over to the SS .... with all those implications;

news, rumors, and propaganda about German "Secret Super Weapons" ran rampant during the war, churned
about by SS propaganda units, supressed or promoted by American authorites on whatever whim they were
operating under at the time - after the war, specualtion of the state of Nazi technology was an industry ....

it may be truth or rumor or government propaganda that US pilots were briefed to be on the lookout for
"flying disc aircraft" over Europe from 1946-1950 - by the time of the Korean Conflict, after Roswell, it
was taken for fact that US pilots were so briefed for that Arena - that the Soviets had the "Nazi Flying
Saucer" .....


in 1947 and 1948, the primary concern of the American Government was the development of atomic
weapons by the Soviets; various methods of montioring were being developed, including sesmic
"listening posts" and high-altitude particle collection; the US Air Force began modifying their
high-altitude weather ballons for this mission - these ballons would be placed as close to the Soviet
airspace as possible, with huge rolls of sticky paper - the paper would be trailed out behind the
balloon, collect the particles, rolled back in and analyzed for trace signs of radiation, and other
particles indicitive of an above-ground atomic explosion; this method of detection was used up
until the 1963 above-ground test treaty, but later with US cargo planes, skirting Soviet airspace;
(BTW, the first Soviet denotation was August 1949)

the Roswell crash was the turning point in the government's thinking; they did not want to publicly
admit that the object that crashed was in fact, one of these balloons; when the rumor-mill, already
charged with stories of Nazi UFOs, and "Flying Saucers", and aliens decided the crash was a extra-
terrestrial spacecraft, the Brass saw the opportunity to start a double- and triple-misinformation
campaign ....

they didn't have to deny it was a high-altitude particle-gathering balloon; no-one now believed
it was a baloon, anyway ... they denied it was a spacecraft, of whatever origin .... the 'wreckage' is
obviously that of a balloon, so they said "it was a high-altitude weather balloon", which was a
partial truth, but the UFO Believers thought it was a cover-up .... and it was, but not of a UFO ...

after that, the run-away mthos of the UFOs served the US Air Force as a blanket cover for anything;
except that, around 1955, the questions about US airspace security began - what are these UFOs
then, that the mighty US Air Force can't intercept or shoot-down? if you are lying to us because these
objects are in fact Soviet aircraft, aren't we in serious danger? if you are lying to us because these objects
are alien in origin and you don't know about them or aren't in contact with these "aliens", aren't we in
serious danger?

so the Company Line shifted to "there are no UFOs and those who believe in them or think they have
seen one are mentally unstable"; the press at the time was instructed to follow this line - and still do to
this day ...

this is an interesting critique of the "Nazi Flying Saucer" story,
actually on one of the "UFOlogist" webpages; I don't where the
author stands on the whole thing, but the Nazi stuff makes him mad;
http://www.ufologie.net/htm/germansaucerstsf.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I found his page looking for a photo of the V173:

but there are lots of other revelent photos and diagrams there ...

here's a page from one of Art Bell's best friends, demonstrating the long reach and
unintended consequences of the US & Soviet Propaganda Machines:
http://www.karenlyster.com/german.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

this is a 2008 Daily KOS article:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/8/23 ... 908/570664" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

some other random pics on the subject, some are of the era, some later,
google "Nazi Flying Saucers" if you want figger it all out ...







this is real photo of a real USAF project:



this is not:






some of you may be very well aware of the "Rosewell Incident"-Project Bluebook-Majestic 12-Project Paperclip
story, and how the USAF used propaganda and counter-propaganda and misinformation and so on to try to confuse and
obfuscate the true state of technology and airspace defense from the US public, US presidents and the Congress, the
Soviets, America's NATO allies, and so forth ... some of you may have never heard of the issue of "Nazi Spacemen" at all,
or never understood how the governments used and are still using the "UFOlogists" as disseminators of what they think they
want people to believe ...


anyway, and most of you are smart enough to see where I am going with this, to the issue at hand -

what this incident was, and there no other rational, plausible explanation for it,
was an accidental launch of a missile from either a US Navy submarine or other warship;

#1) The US Navy cannot, will not, and will never state this was an accidental launch;

#2) Had this been an actual launch from a Chinese submarine, the American Government's reaction would have been very different;

#2a) the chinese government has no reason or desire for such a "show of force"; they also have no reason or desire for any
type of military conflict with America; it is counter-intuitive to their thinking in global policy, and certainly against their economic policy;
they are not the ones beating the war-drums in this time and place ... however -

#3) the fascists, warmongers, and paranoid First-Strikers who run the American Military certainly have a vested interest in keeping
the American people on-edge about China and their military capabilities, as do the Robber Barons who are seeing the global economic
markets sliding in China's favor, and as long as China has a government they cannot bully or control, they will attempt to raise the fear
and paranoia until the American people are clamoring for military action - which the John Wayne Right Wing already are - they have fully
accepted the "China-Sub" theory and are flooding the email inboxes of America right now with demands for some Chink-ass to be whipped ...

#4) the American military and Federal Government have had 60 years now of experience with using the "UFO denial" technique, so much
so that it's employed on a hundred different levels every day; they are very good at it - the blanket denial it was a American missile, or
a missile at all, the pro-offering of an implausible solution (an airplane) and the dismissal of critics of that solution, and the quiet tacit
approval of the China-Sub rumor, are all hallmarks of the propaganda technique ....

#5) the military and the Government know that with football season reaching its climax and "The Holidays" beginning, this incident will
quickly fade from the public consciousness ... except in the minds and webpages of the fringe, who continue to be fed rumors and the
occasional "interview with a government official" to keep the idea alive and tailored for their purposes, and to continue to foster the
by-now-well-accepted notion that "the government" "covers things up" ... which is what they want you to believe ...

it will be ten to twenty years before the truth of this incident is known; the information will come from a retired congressman or senator,
in his much-hyped "memoirs", at the prodding of his publisher, who knows this tidbit will boost sales and TV promo appearances;
the recollection of the conversation will sound something like this:

Random JCS General: Well, shit, Senator - it was just a fuck-up.
Senator (nodding): Uh-huh. Yeah,well ... thank God there wasn't a warhead on that fucker ...
Gen (chuckling): Oh, yeah ... goodchrist ... y'know, that thing came down the other side of Elko ?
Sen: No shit.
Gen: Yessir. If it'da had a warhead .... well, we'da had to blame the Chinese ...
Sen (sighing): Hmph. And the war woulda be on today ... well, they say that God looks after drunks & fools & little children ...
Gen: Yessir ... and it looks like them shitheels on that sub was all three ...
Sen: We thinking to just let this 'Chinese-Sub' rumor ride out ?
Gen (nodding): Yessir ... looks like a win-win ... with POTUS over there right now, they're thinking they'll be able to spin some
some good behind-closed-doors perceptions ....
Sen: Is he supposed to rattle sabers or kow-tow ?
Gen (scratching his head): Fuck, Senator, I don't really know ... the way they're having him play right now, it'll be a little of both,
depending on who's watching ... mostly kow-towing tho, I'd think; that's mostly where they're at with him, he makes it look like it's
all our fault, anyway ... gets the hawks all riled up ...
Sen: Yeah, they are certainly "riled up" .... have you seen this website ?
Gen (leaning forward, chuckles): Yessir. Hell, half them 'comments' are from Langley ....
Sen (leaning back in his chair): Well .... coulda been a lot worse, I guess ...
Gen: Oh, Yessir.
Sen: But ... I guess you people always will make lemonade, huh ?
Gen (laughing): Sure as shit gonna try, sir.
Sen: This 'airplane' thing, tho .... hell, my seven year old grand-daughter doesn't believe that ...
Gen: Well, that's good,sir. Means it's working well.
Sen: I guess. Well, all right then, General. Thank you for your time. I think I know what to do now.
Gen (standing): Anytime, sir.
Sen: Well, I hope we won't have another time like this ... oh, by the way, I take it there was disciplinary action on the crew ?
Gen: Oh yessir - everyone involved and who had knowledge was taken off the ship and executed.
Sen: Good, good.


and when I turn out to be 100% correct about all this, y'all can dig me up and pour some Evan Williams thru my skull ....





on the other hand, there is this totally authenticated and unexplainable photograph,
taken by an OSS officer who had infiltrated the German High Command in 1942 :

Kojiro wrote:I can't tell if you're being sarcastic

I'm convinced. Nuke 'em into the Stone Age.

SandChigger wrote:

Kojiro wrote:I can't tell if you're being sarcastic

I've seen plenty of Chinese eat those.

Kojiro wrote:I've seen plenty of Chinese eat those.

OH MY GAWD! NOT OUR ALIEN MOON SQUID FRIENDS?!


Yeah, well, considering that the Chinese eat literally EVERYTHING, that is again not saying much.