Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Is it fair to assume all of Leto's inner dialogue presented in GEoD is also recorded by the Ixian dictatel, thus available in his journals at Dar-es Balat?

No takers yet, huh?

Interesting question. Was there something in GEoD about him having to think a specific thought to activate the recorders, or were they on continuously? (It's been a while since I've read it straight through. I seem to remember him mentioning some device which he had to consciously activate, but I'm not sure about the thought-recorders at Dar-es-Balat. Will poke around a bit later and see if I can find something. )

If they were on all the time, then YES to your question. If he had to activate them, then NO.

(More later... sorry, not terribly informative, more like thinking aloud... )

It's slightly confusing, because of a few passages:

First, from the Stolen Journals, Leto says:

"If I cast my thoughts in a particular mode, the dictatel is activated."

This obviously seems to indicate that the dictatel are not always activated. However, in a later chapter (I can't find it at the moment), Leto says, "But my journals hear all!"

Also, at least two things seem to indicate that the events of GEoD are somehow recorded in Leto's journals:

1. From the Hadi Benotto translation, Leto addresses the reader directly:

"Isn't she fascinating, my Siona? As you come to understand her importance to me, you may even question whether I really would have let her die there in the forest."

This implies:
-- The reader is familiar with the events in the chapter preceding this, which is NOT indicated to be from a translation of, or reading of, Leto's journals. It describes Siona and her companions escape with the Stolen Journals while being pursued by D-wolves.
-- The reader will learn of Siona's importance to Leto.

2. The Minority Report on the discoveries at Dar-es-Balat
The Minority report indicates new discoveries in the journal pertaining to "the persistent Cult of Sister Chenoeh" as well as the need for a reevaluation of the Church's characterization of "Judas/Nayla." This indicates that events in GEoD are recorded in Leto's journals.

baudib wrote:It's slightly confusing, because of a few passages:

First, from the Stolen Journals, Leto says:

"If I cast my thoughts in a particular mode, the dictatel is activated."

This obviously seems to indicate that the dictatel are not always activated. However, in a later chapter (I can't find it at the moment), Leto says, "But my journals hear all!"

Also, at least two things seem to indicate that the events of GEoD are somehow recorded in Leto's journals:

1. From the Hadi Benotto translation, Leto addresses the reader directly:

"Isn't she fascinating, my Siona? As you come to understand her importance to me, you may even question whether I really would have let her die there in the forest."

This implies:
-- The reader is familiar with the events in the chapter preceding this, which is NOT indicated to be from a translation of, or reading of, Leto's journals. It describes Siona and her companions escape with the Stolen Journals while being pursued by D-wolves.

I believe that was only two volumes or so.

-- The reader will learn of Siona's importance to Leto.

2. The Minority Report on the discoveries at Dar-es-Balat
The Minority report indicates new discoveries in the journal pertaining to "the persistent Cult of Sister Chenoeh" as well as the need for a reevaluation of the Church's characterization of "Judas/Nayla." This indicates that events in GEoD are recorded in Leto's journals.

It was probably on and monitoring what he said/thought/experienced all the time and he either edited out what he didn't need to keep on the fly or later. He had enough time on his hands. Maybe the events in GEoD are unedited because he didn't get to edit it do to his "division".

I don't know mate, you ask an interesting question but i'm having trouble getting past 'cast my thoughts in a particular mode.'
On the one hand, I could almost believe Leto would have the thing running constantly, on the other, it makes more sense to me that it records what he wants to tell. after having given as much as he did for humanity, to think that he'd given up even the privacy of his thoughts is too much.

I haven't looked it up but when Leto says, "But my journals hear all!" I think he's saying that that's where he gets to tell his side of the story.
Naturally, he'll be including events.

D Pope wrote:I haven't looked it up but when Leto says, "But my journals hear all!" I think he's saying that that's where he gets to tell his side of the story.

I think this is what it means. I doubt the recording is running at all times.

I'm fine with buying the notion that the dictatel isn't running all the time, but that doesn't answer my question: Should we assume that all of the events as well as Leto's thoughts in GEoD are preserved in the findings at Dar-es-Balat?

baudib wrote:I'm fine with buying the notion that the dictatel isn't running all the time, but that doesn't answer my question: Should we assume that all of the events as well as Leto's thoughts in GEoD are preserved in the findings at Dar-es-Balat?

I'm not sure if I'd go that far, because some of the events do not include Leto, even though he certainly knows about most of them. I think the Prologue does a nice job of setting up the novel in the same way Irulan sets up (but does not write) Dune.

I'd say no, because the Golden Path still seemed to be a complete mystery to the BG. And they would have OM recall of all the events through Siona ancestry..

I personally would take the book simply as any other book, not meant to be literally a journal iteself or a historical document, just a semi-omniscient third person telling of a story.

Freakzilla wrote:I'd say no, because the Golden Path still seemed to be a complete mystery to the BG.

Could you elaborate on this? I've never even considered this.

baudib wrote:I'm fine with buying the notion that the dictatel isn't running all the time, but that doesn't answer my question: Should we assume that all of the events as well as Leto's thoughts in GEoD are preserved in the findings at Dar-es-Balat?

What do you have in mind?

I don't think that's a safe assumption at all, I think Letos no-globe contained his journal, the device that recorded his thoughts, and maybe a few trinkets that could be used to date the place. I can't think of any reason events from GEoD would be in Dar-es-Balat except as entries in Letos journal. Do you think Moneos conversations with Duncan were recorded there?

Are you suggesting that GEoD is from Dar-es-Balat?

(Oh, please, no. That way lies McDune...)

Some chapters are in-universe text. Most aren't.

baudib wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I'd say no, because the Golden Path still seemed to be a complete mystery to the BG.

Could you elaborate on this? I've never even considered this.

The BG seemed to have no idea what the GP was about, specifically. If events such as Siona's Test and all the dialogues with Duncan and Moneo had been recorded, the BG would know as much as we do.

But they don't.

Which may be why they also buy into the nonsense about the "oracular hold" of unconscious, non-acting "pearls of awareness".

I forget now who pointed it out here, but the BG belief that the PoAs continued to have some influence on human affairs could have a stronger and more pervasive effect on their behavior than any real power possessed by the PoAs. (Like leading them to goad the HMs into destroying Rakis?)

Wow. I always accepted that as truth; so Taraza/Odrade were totally wrong about that?

Either way the affect was real. But it was beside the point. Destroying Dune destroyed the core of the old empire setting up themselves and their countless duniform cells as universal spice masters.

baudib wrote:Wow. I always accepted that as truth; so Taraza/Odrade were totally wrong about that?

Maybe, maybe not. I just have a big problem with the whole "the act of prescience creates the future" deal. (What is the prescient really seeing in that case? Just a projection of his/her own subconscious desires? And what are the alternate futures which can be seen, in that case?) It only really makes sense to me that a conscious, willful act of choosing between alternatives (either actively doing something required for a vision to be realized, or intentionally doing nothing and allowing something to occur) can affect events in the real world (fictional "real world", in this case).

Even if I bought it for conscious human characters, how can it apply for unconscious pearls of awareness trapped in sandworm bodies?

The same way the Dune Tarot did?

The Tarot simply muddied the Waters of Time for prescient searchers, it didn't lock in any visions.

And a deck of Dune Tarot cards simply sitting on a table or shelf in an Arrakeen house wouldn't "muddy the waters", would it? Wasn't it the active use of the cards in trying to foretell the future that did it?


(Does card-reading fall under sympathetic magic, or is there another term for it?)

baudib wrote:The Tarot simply muddied the Waters of Time for prescient searchers, it didn't lock in any visions.

But it did influence those who believed in it and affected their decisions.

SandChigger wrote:And a deck of Dune Tarot cards simply sitting on a table or shelf in an Arrakeen house wouldn't "muddy the waters", would it? Wasn't it the active use of the cards in trying to foretell the future that did it?


(Does card-reading fall under sympathetic magic, or is there another term for it?)

Sure, and billions of people actively worshiped The Divided God, too.

Freakzilla wrote:

baudib wrote:The Tarot simply muddied the Waters of Time for prescient searchers, it didn't lock in any visions.

But it did influence those who believed in it and affected their decisions.

I see; sort of self-fulfilling..."prophecy"?

But I don't think the true prescients were using the Tarot.

baudib wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:

baudib wrote:The Tarot simply muddied the Waters of Time for prescient searchers, it didn't lock in any visions.

But it did influence those who believed in it and affected their decisions.

I see; sort of self-fulfilling..."prophecy"?

But I don't think the true prescients were using the Tarot.

The Tarot WAS the oracle.