Re: Jacurutu Fan Screenplays of Dune?
Posted: 04 Feb 2013 15:03
Has it cum to this.
-Inhuien
-Inhuien
DUNE DISCUSSION FORUM FOR ORTHODOX HERBERTARIANS
http://www.jacurutu.com/
-I don't remember any suicide bombers in the book.Freakzilla wrote:Was he the 'good' guy? He duped the Fremen into thinking he was their messiah so he could avenge his fathers death and take over the universe, then once he does he sends the Fremen out into that universe to kill 61 billion non-believers, they serilize 90 planets, beat 500 into submission and wiped out 40 religions.Naïve mind wrote:This would be completely true to the book, though.leagued wrote: Do not agree with this. caricature rarely makes for a better quality product and showing desert people leading suicide bomb charges is probably going to convince the bulk of the audience that Paul is no longer the good guy.
He makes Hitler look like a pacifist.
Your first citation happened before Paul had even been accepted among the Fremen, let alone after he had become their leader so it hardly makes sense to use it as an example of how Paul turned them from noble savages into suicide bombers (the original root of this branch of the discussion). And the second citation still doesn't show any examples of suicide bombers; its talking about pitched battle not terrorist-like strikes on civilian targets.Freakzilla wrote:Hawat's attention was caught by a flash of sun on metal to the south, a
'thopter plummeting there in a power dive, wings folded flat against its sides,
its jets a golden flare against the dark silvered gray of the sky. It plunged
like an arrow toward the troop carrier which was unshielded because of the
lasgun activity around it. Straight into the carrier the diving 'thopter
plunged.
...
"His people scream his name as they leap into battle. The women throw their
babies at us and hurl themselves onto our knives to open a wedge for their men
to attack us. They have no . . . no . . . decency!"
~Dune
While much of what I mentioned is revealed in Dune Messiah it was still known to Paul through prescience before he even met the Fremen. He made the decision to not give himself up to the Harkonnens and to seek refuge with the Fremen, knowing it would lead to the Jihad. Sure he tried to stop it after, it was too late.
malicious implies intent, something that volcanos distinctly lack. And is there a better way to categorize atrocities?inhuien wrote:Statistics can make any point, but we're discussing individual lives each the centre of their own universe it can not be viewed as proportional. If that was the case we should be blaming the super volcano in Yellowstone as the single most malicious event. Estimates are it took us down to about 1600 souls last time it blew more than 60,000 years ago.
One hundred million?leagued wrote:If we use the Hundred Million planets of the Old Empire...
I don't have my books here so I'm relying on memory and wikipedia, but it says that the Honored Matres referred to the Old Empire as "The Million Planets", so that's what I used.JustSomeGuy wrote:One hundred million?leagued wrote:If we use the Hundred Million planets of the Old Empire...
Oops; sorry I missed my own mistake even when pointed out to me. Apologies.leagued wrote:I don't have my books here so I'm relying on memory and wikipedia, but it says that the Honored Matres referred to the Old Empire as "The Million Planets", so that's what I used.JustSomeGuy wrote:One hundred million?leagued wrote:If we use the Hundred Million planets of the Old Empire...
The Fremen are hardly suicide bombers. Maybe the Jacurutu Fremen in Harrison's miniseries, but Fremen generally are not ones to blow themselves up as our modern day Middle-Eastern terrorists do. They only kill Harkonnens, or trespassers on their territory. Their code of conduct is more like the Bedouins in Lawrence of Arabia: they don't take prisoners, and they leave no wounded for the Turks/Harkonnens.lotek wrote:The Fremen were always religious fanatics, what we call now suicide bombers, before Paul meets them.
The worst thing that could happen to tem was a Hero.
And I disagree with the idea that Paul made them, he and his mother just improved the weapon they found.
And there are quotes that prove Paul knows the altenative and he knows exactly what he's doing, using the tribes to get revenge and his power back.
Not a good guy, we onnly feel for him because of the tragedy that befell him, and we root for Harkonnen blood. just like,,, the Hero. not that he's a bad guy, but his drive to succeed allows him to make do with his conscience.
I wonder if it would work with the general public if a director took the pleasure of identifying yourself to the Hero and his trials, when that Hero is a spoiled and overtrained for power aristocrat.
Whoa there, Fremen do NOT live in cities and Arakeen was not the only population center.Jodorowsky's Acolyte wrote:...since the only public place on Arrakis is the Arakeen, and that's populated with innocent Fremen.
(that's at the end of Book One)He had seen two main branchings along the way ahead--in one he confronted an
evil old Baron and said: "Hello, Grandfather." The thought of that path and what
lay along it sickened him.
The other path held long patches of grey obscurity except for peaks of
violence. He had seen a warrior religion there, a fire spreading across the
universe with the Atreides green and black banner waving at the head of fanatic
legions drunk on spice liquor. Gurney Halleck and a few others of his father's
men--a pitiful few--were among them, all marked by the hawk symbol from the
shrine of his father's skull.
"I can't go that way," he muttered. "That's what the old witches of your
schools really want."
"I don't understand you, Paul," his mother said.
And again he remembered the vision of fanatic legions following the green
and black banner of the Atreides, pillaging and burning across the universe in
the name of their prophet Muad'Dib.
That must not happen, he told himself
Paul, hearing these words, realized that he had plunged once more into the
abyss . . . blind time. There was no past occupying the future in his mind . . .
except . . . except . . . he could still sense the green and black Atreides
banner waving . . . somewhere ahead . . . still see the jihad's bloody swords
and fanatic legions.
And here's what Jessica makes of the FremenThe thought was both reassuring and frustrating. Somewhere ahead of him on
this path, the fanatic hordes cut their gory path across the universe in his
name. The green and black Atreides banner would become a symbol of terror
When Paul defeats Jamis, he cries because his mother acts to prevent him from thinking himself superior (which implies that it could happen)Her thoughts turned to Liet-Kynes, the Emperor's planetary ecologist, the
man who had gone native--and she wondered at him. This was a dream to capture men's souls, and she could sense the hand of the ecologist in it. This was a
dream for which men would die willingly. It was another of the essential
ingredients that she felt her son needed; people with a goal. Such people would
be easy to imbue with fervor and fanaticism. They could be wielded like a sword
to win back Paul's place for him.
Feyd is Paul without the Atreides code, but that code is not Arthurian chivalry or something, it's pragmatism pushed to its limits. The Harkonnen use force and fear, the Atreides use love and faith, but they want the same thing, power.Now is the terrible moment, she thought. He has killed a man in clear
superiority of mind and muscle. He must not grow to enjoy such a victory.
She forced herself through the last of the troop and into a small open space
where two bearded Fremen were helping Paul into his stillsuit.
Jessica stared at her son. Paul's eyes were bright. He breathed
"Him against Jamis and not a mark on him," one of the men muttered.
Chani stood at one side, her eyes focused on Paul. Jessica saw the girl's
excitement, the admiration in the elfin face.
It must be done now and swiftly, Jessica thought.
She compressed ultimate scorn into her voice and manner, said: "Well-l-l,
now--how does it feel to be a killer?"
Paul stiffened as though he had been struck. He met his mother's cold glare
and his face darkened with a rush of blood. Involuntarily he glanced toward the
place on the cavern floor where Jamis had lain.
Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.leagued wrote:it hardly makes sense to use it as an example of how Paul turned them from noble savages into suicide bombers (the original root of this branch of the discussion)
Glad that I'm not a foolNaïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.
The latter IS what the book says. Before they even move to Arrakis, Mohaim tells Jessica the MP has prepared the natives:leagued wrote:Glad that I'm not a foolNaïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.
I think that Dune is written with the Atreides mystique very much front and center. In later books the curtain is pulled back and we see inside it more, but in Dune you are supposed to see Paul as the noble hero, who serves the people he rules over. So the question is whether a new filmed version should portray him as the hero or as a man who consciously manipulates the pool of religious fanatics he finds ready made.
Of course he did, but he still chose that path knowing it would lead to the Jihad.Both aspects should be touched on, to varying degrees, but I do still personally believe that Paul was doing everything in his ability to mitigate the evil of the Jihad from the first moment he knows about it- he just is trapped.
Paul didn't see the Golden Path, at least not human extinction. It wasn't evil to Paul because he was born and raised a noble, bred and trained to seek and hold power. I don't think either of us are saying that Paul was trying to be evil.In Children he says that he was incapable of doing evil if the evil were known beforehand (Sorry, again without my books so I don't have the quote but its when Paul and Leto are discussing the Golden Path). To me that always meant that Paul would not knowingly do what he saw as evil, even for the sake of the Golden Path.
Yes.The Atreides mystique is partially a construction and propaganda and Duke Leto was probably the coldest, most pragmatic character in the entire Chronicle, but its also built on the actual code of honor that the Atreides instilled in themselves.
Next time you read it try keeping a non-Atreides POV in mind.In a longer format you could touch on a lot more differing viewpoints to expound some of these things- what does Paul look like to the Fremen? To Stilgar? To the Harkonnens- both on Geidi Prime and in Carthag and Arrakeen? What about within the Emperor's court? You could do an entire episode going from place to place and exploring this while Paul is left entirely off-screen.
That's one of the best I've seen. I always imagine them looking more like insects than birds.Anyway... that is a fine looking thopter.
Shrug; I always thought more bird myself, but anything that would actually capture some wing movements would be a massive improvement over what we've gotten so far on film.Freakzilla wrote:leagued wrote:Glad that I'm not a foolNaïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.
I think that Dune is written with the Atreides mystique very much front and center. In later books the curtain is pulled back and we see inside it more, but in Dune you are supposed to see Paul as the noble hero, who serves the people he rules over. So the question is whether a new filmed version should portray him as the hero or as a man who consciously manipulates the pool of religious fanatics he finds ready made.That quote only says what has been established before they go to Dune; it in no way speaks to the decisions that Paul makes once on Dune. It doesn't speak to his actions at all.The latter IS what the book says. Before they even move to Arrakis, Mohaim tells Jessica the MP has prepared the natives:
Jessica turned away, looked out the window at the gathering darkness. "Is it
really that terrible, this planet of Arrakis?"
"Bad enough, but not all bad. The Missionaria Protectiva has been in there
and softened it up somewhat."
Both aspects should be touched on, to varying degrees, but I do still personally believe that Paul was doing everything in his ability to mitigate the evil of the Jihad from the first moment he knows about it- he just is trapped.Was there ever any choice that he did have? He's trapped by his Terrible Purpose before he even understands that he is prescient. And from the time of his first visions in the desert he's already trapped and can't find a way out.Of course he did, but he still chose that path knowing it would lead to the Jihad.
In Children he says that he was incapable of doing evil if the evil were known beforehand (Sorry, again without my books so I don't have the quote but its when Paul and Leto are discussing the Golden Path). To me that always meant that Paul would not knowingly do what he saw as evil, even for the sake of the Golden Path.I think Paul saw the steps required for the Golden Path, ie the transformation, but not the product of it, ie the scattering and that it was the requirement for human survival. I think to him it was just a path of ultimate, continued power- and he refused it because of the evil he saw along that path. He saw the peace of the Tyrant but not the scattering afterward. How does his tossing aside all that power to become the Preacher fit with the image of him being just an aristocrat raised to seize and hold onto power?Paul didn't see the Golden Path, at least not human extinction. It wasn't evil to Paul because he was born and raised a noble, bred and trained to seek and hold power. I don't think either of us are saying that Paul was trying to be evil.
I could never do an evil act which was known before the act.
The quote I referenced earlier.
Just once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader.
Paul is a failure- he fought the Jihad, he did everything he could to serve his people, and he did not do it out of selfish interests. Even the one time he failed to live to his values was a failure out of his love for Chani.
Yes.The Atreides mystique is partially a construction and propaganda and Duke Leto was probably the coldest, most pragmatic character in the entire Chronicle, but its also built on the actual code of honor that the Atreides instilled in themselves.
Next time you read it try keeping a non-Atreides POV in mind.In a longer format you could touch on a lot more differing viewpoints to expound some of these things- what does Paul look like to the Fremen? To Stilgar? To the Harkonnens- both on Geidi Prime and in Carthag and Arrakeen? What about within the Emperor's court? You could do an entire episode going from place to place and exploring this while Paul is left entirely off-screen.
That's one of the best I've seen. I always imagine them looking more like insects than birds.Anyway... that is a fine looking thopter.
My point was that Mohiam tells Jessica that the MP has been there, a way is prepared. I believe Lotek already quoted the moment when Paul chose the path of the Jihad in the stiltent with Jessica.leagued wrote:Freakzilla wrote:leagued wrote:Glad that I'm not a foolNaïve mind wrote:Not quite. This depiction would be artistic license. There is quite a bit of purposeful misdirection in the book--you're not a fool for sticking to the image of Paul as a protagonist, it's the writer playing a trick on you. My desire would be to perform the same trick in the movie--as done in Starship Troopers--to get the audience to root for the bad guys.
I think that Dune is written with the Atreides mystique very much front and center. In later books the curtain is pulled back and we see inside it more, but in Dune you are supposed to see Paul as the noble hero, who serves the people he rules over. So the question is whether a new filmed version should portray him as the hero or as a man who consciously manipulates the pool of religious fanatics he finds ready made.That quote only says what has been established before they go to Dune; it in no way speaks to the decisions that Paul makes once on Dune. It doesn't speak to his actions at all.The latter IS what the book says. Before they even move to Arrakis, Mohaim tells Jessica the MP has prepared the natives:
Jessica turned away, looked out the window at the gathering darkness. "Is it
really that terrible, this planet of Arrakis?"
"Bad enough, but not all bad. The Missionaria Protectiva has been in there
and softened it up somewhat."
He didn't see the possible extinction of humanity. Therefor the transformation would have served only to extend his life. He could have seen the need for The Scattering but he still wouldn't have been humanity's savior, in his own mind. It would just be a cruel lesson.Both aspects should be touched on, to varying degrees, but I do still personally believe that Paul was doing everything in his ability to mitigate the evil of the Jihad from the first moment he knows about it- he just is trapped.Was there ever any choice that he did have? He's trapped by his Terrible Purpose before he even understands that he is prescient. And from the time of his first visions in the desert he's already trapped and can't find a way out.Of course he did, but he still chose that path knowing it would lead to the Jihad.
In Children he says that he was incapable of doing evil if the evil were known beforehand (Sorry, again without my books so I don't have the quote but its when Paul and Leto are discussing the Golden Path). To me that always meant that Paul would not knowingly do what he saw as evil, even for the sake of the Golden Path.I think Paul saw the steps required for the Golden Path, ie the transformation, but not the product of it, ie the scattering and that it was the requirement for human survival. I think to him it was just a path of ultimate, continued power- and he refused it because of the evil he saw along that path. He saw the peace of the Tyrant but not the scattering afterward. How does his tossing aside all that power to become the Preacher fit with the image of him being just an aristocrat raised to seize and hold onto power?Paul didn't see the Golden Path, at least not human extinction. It wasn't evil to Paul because he was born and raised a noble, bred and trained to seek and hold power. I don't think either of us are saying that Paul was trying to be evil.
I could never do an evil act which was known before the act.
The quote I referenced earlier.
He did it to save Chani's life because he wanted to be with her.Just once I failed to fight for my principles. Just once. I accepted the Mahdinate. I did it for Chani, but it made me a bad leader.
Paul is a failure- he fought the Jihad, he did everything he could to serve his people, and he did not do it out of selfish interests. Even the one time he failed to live to his values was a failure out of his love for Chani.
I don't see why you couldn't do both.Shrug; I always thought more bird myself, but anything that would actually capture some wing movements would be a massive improvement over what we've gotten so far on film.Yes.The Atreides mystique is partially a construction and propaganda and Duke Leto was probably the coldest, most pragmatic character in the entire Chronicle, but its also built on the actual code of honor that the Atreides instilled in themselves.
Next time you read it try keeping a non-Atreides POV in mind.In a longer format you could touch on a lot more differing viewpoints to expound some of these things- what does Paul look like to the Fremen? To Stilgar? To the Harkonnens- both on Geidi Prime and in Carthag and Arrakeen? What about within the Emperor's court? You could do an entire episode going from place to place and exploring this while Paul is left entirely off-screen.
That's one of the best I've seen. I always imagine them looking more like insects than birds.Anyway... that is a fine looking thopter.