Scytale's Null Entropy tube
Posted: 23 May 2016 23:27
What do you guys think Frank Herbert planned for Scytale's Null Entropy tube?
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That's all I saw it as. Maybe if Scytale had the opportunity to re-establish the Tleilaxu civilization it would be genetic source material for his minions. In no way could I see FH bringing back the Atreides as gholas.Serkanner wrote:I think he would have continued to use it as a plot mechanism.
I kind of see what you're getting at, but what exactly is the contradiction? From what the books suggest it seems that the BT are good at mixing genes together and at messing around with a given template, but don't have the know-how to create their own genetic lines. What the BG do is basically the next-best thing to pure genetic engineering, where the BT really only do cross-pollination and splicing. Maybe they saw a BG breeding mistress as being a far better genetic template to begin with in creating gholas?Freakzilla wrote:I'm currently reading HoD and the Nullentropy tube is bullshit. Waff nearly came at the idea of Atreides Bene Gesserit breeding mistress and the thought of what the BT might do with that raw genetic material.
Right, but if they merely got a few cells they could create RM gholas, or even add those cells to another ghola and potentially reawaken the entire RM genetic and shared memories in the gholas of a master.Freakzilla wrote:I suppose that's possible but all a modern Atreides has is faster reflexes and the Siona gene, they could splice that in like they did with Duncan. A RM would kill herself before letting a face dancer take a memory print.
Just out of curiosity, why is the Dune Reddit the peanut gallery? Are you referring to the Preek fans on there who actually try to bring up Brian and KJA's fan fiction on a subreddit reserved for Dune?Godemperorjames wrote:I've been thinking about it and I think Frank planned on Scytale losing those cells to Daniel and Marty. I think Scytale would successfully escape chapter house and assume the scattering face dancers are just as loyal as standard face dancers.i posted this to the Dune reddit forum (aka the peanut gallery). I wanted to know what you guys thought!
I don't think memories of Other Memory would be of any use. The reawakened ghola would have to go through The Agony AGAIN!georgiedenbro wrote:Right, but if they merely got a few cells they could create RM gholas, or even add those cells to another ghola and potentially reawaken the entire RM genetic and shared memories in the gholas of a master.Freakzilla wrote:I suppose that's possible but all a modern Atreides has is faster reflexes and the Siona gene, they could splice that in like they did with Duncan. A RM would kill herself before letting a face dancer take a memory print.
Freakzilla wrote:I don't think memories of Other Memory would be of any use. The reawakened ghola would have to go through The Agony AGAIN!georgiedenbro wrote:Right, but if they merely got a few cells they could create RM gholas, or even add those cells to another ghola and potentially reawaken the entire RM genetic and shared memories in the gholas of a master.Freakzilla wrote:I suppose that's possible but all a modern Atreides has is faster reflexes and the Siona gene, they could splice that in like they did with Duncan. A RM would kill herself before letting a face dancer take a memory print.
I guess I'm not sure about this mechanic. When Leto II was born, for instance, we know he already had all of Paul's memories, including the complete information of all the prescient scanning Paul had ever done. But the text doesn't explicitly say that he also inherited Paul's knowledge from 'safaris' into his OM. FH didn't focus that much on OM when it came to Paul compared to how much it was discussed in GEoD. OM seems to be a bit different from 'memory', as according to Leto II one must actually take time to 'explore' it in order to see what's there. The RM's later on say this must be done carefully, which means it's not just as simple as 'remembering' something. But let's assume a RM had done a particular safari and learned some things. The way I think of it at the very least those discoveries would become part of her 'regular' memory; she'd now know them in the conventional sense without having to take a journey through the past to recollect those same events again later on. So maybe you're right that the entire breadth of OM (shared and genetic) wouldn't transfer to a ghola when awakened, but I still think it makes sense to assume that any knowledge gleaned already from particular safaris would be retained in the basic knowledge of the ghola when reawakened. But such such an awakened ghola would, as you say, have to still go through the agony again to conduct further exploration of the OM.Freakzilla wrote:georgiedenbro wrote:Freakzilla wrote:I suppose that's possible but all a modern Atreides has is faster reflexes and the Siona gene, they could splice that in like they did
I don't think memories of Other Memory would be of any use. The reawakened ghola would have to go through The Agony AGAIN!
Yes, the process of gaining OM evolved through the series. Jessica and Paul experienced no "agony". Irulan's contraceptive plus Chani's high spice diet during her pregnancy gave the twins access to other memory in the womb.georgiedenbro wrote:I guess I'm not sure about this mechanic. When Leto II was born, for instance, we know he already had all of Paul's memories, including the complete information of all the prescient scanning Paul had ever done. But the text doesn't explicitly say that he also inherited Paul's knowledge from 'safaris' into his OM. FH didn't focus that much on OM when it came to Paul compared to how much it was discussed in GEoD. OM seems to be a bit different from 'memory', as according to Leto II one must actually take time to 'explore' it in order to see what's there. The RM's later on say this must be done carefully, which means it's not just as simple as 'remembering' something. But let's assume a RM had done a particular safari and learned some things. The way I think of it at the very least those discoveries would become part of her 'regular' memory; she'd now know them in the conventional sense without having to take a journey through the past to recollect those same events again later on. So maybe you're right that the entire breadth of OM (shared and genetic) wouldn't transfer to a ghola when awakened, but I still think it makes sense to assume that any knowledge gleaned already from particular safaris would be retained in the basic knowledge of the ghola when reawakened. But such such an awakened ghola would, as you say, have to still go through the agony again to conduct further exploration of the OM.Freakzilla wrote:georgiedenbro wrote:Freakzilla wrote:I suppose that's possible but all a modern Atreides has is faster reflexes and the Siona gene, they could splice that in like they did
I don't think memories of Other Memory would be of any use. The reawakened ghola would have to go through The Agony AGAIN!
Could they? What makes a RM a RM? The Ghola needs to be able to survive the Agony and as far as I know that needs BG training.georgiedenbro wrote: Right, but if they merely got a few cells they could create RM gholas, ...
Yeah. I think that since the gholas of RM's would at least retain the memories of safaris they'd already done, that alone would be incalculably valuable to the BT. Even if a particular RM only had distinct knowledge of, say, a few dozen RM's from her past that she'd taken the time to study, that would already be an immense treasure trove of insight into the BG workings.Serkanner wrote:Could they? What makes a RM a RM? The Ghola needs to be able to survive the Agony and as far as I know that needs BG training.georgiedenbro wrote: Right, but if they merely got a few cells they could create RM gholas, ...
EDIT: only now I have read the posts following the quote. It remains an interesting topic though.
Yes, it would provide information but the ghola would not be able to function as a RM.georgiedenbro wrote:Yeah. I think that since the gholas of RM's would at least retain the memories of safaris they'd already done, that alone would be incalculably valuable to the BT. Even if a particular RM only had distinct knowledge of, say, a few dozen RM's from her past that she'd taken the time to study, that would already be an immense treasure trove of insight into the BG workings.Serkanner wrote:Could they? What makes a RM a RM? The Ghola needs to be able to survive the Agony and as far as I know that needs BG training.georgiedenbro wrote: Right, but if they merely got a few cells they could create RM gholas, ...
EDIT: only now I have read the posts following the quote. It remains an interesting topic though.
This always bothered me too. The BT should have sufficient skill to experiment with the "raw genetic material" that each master supposedly carries around with them with every incarnation.Freakzilla wrote:I'm currently reading HoD and the Nullentropy tube is bullshit. Waff nearly came at the idea of Atreides Bene Gesserit breeding mistress and the thought of what the BT might do with that raw genetic material.
Or merely another Face Dancer?" Irulan asked.
"No Face Dancer," Edric said. "A Face Dancer risks exposure under prolonged
surveillance.