Dune Novels

[A Thing of Eternity]

Looks like orald is probably right.

Probably? You're new around these parts, so I'll forgive you this once. Next time remember: Orald is always right.

Chig, I've heard several times that studies have shown the human brain volume to have actually decreased since the cave-men, but mostly during the middle-ages, probably due to malnutrition.
I can't recall if it's getting better now, but if it does, it sure seems a slow process.

Decreasing in volume does not nessecarily mean decreasing in quality. There are studies going on that seem to point to a ratio of grey matter to body mass as being more of a determining factor for intelligence than actual brain size. But either way people are idiots.

[Tleilax Master B]

Chig, I've heard several times that studies have shown the human brain volume to have actually decreased since the cave-men, but mostly during the middle-ages, probably due to malnutrition.
I can't recall if it's getting better now, but if it does, it sure seems a slow process.

Ah lord. What do you say to a post like that. Care to elaborate on who these "cave men" are? Were they dragging women around by their hair and hunting dinosaurs.

Volume of brain matter does not equal intelligence. Looks like Orald isn't "always" right

[Omphalos]

These guys are kinda wrong, orald. Neandertals had bigger brains because they communicated psychically with the UFO's that came out of the center of the earth. Its the truth. Look it up on the internet.

[GamePlayer]

I'm not sure it's the schools' fault, I'm quite sure they teach all that stuff. It's the students' idiocy and disinterest that's to blame.
Most people are just plain stupid and there's nothingt to do about it(other than eugenics...hmm, that might be nice ).

Yeah, you're probably right. Though I've heard of some schools in the states where they are trying or have allowed teaching of creationism as an "alternative" to evolution in science classes. Scary stuff!

[Freakzilla]

Human brains got bigger because the early homosapiens interbred with aliens. Or angels as some people call them.

Don't y'all know nothin'?

[SandChigger]

UFOs from the center of the Earth?!

Nonsense! Everyone knows they fly out of Uranus!

[Crysknife]

There's a creationist museum in Kentucky that cost 27 million to build. They have displays showing that humans lived along side dinosaurs. The sad part is that they encourage schools to take field trips there, and some are more than happy to do it. I hear it's a big hit.

I think the States are getting worse. In the face of all this high speed information and rock solid evidence of old earth and evolution, these people just keep right on thumping their Bibles, and shunning anyone who doesn't agree with them. And where I live, 90% of the people are like that....and Mormon.

[orald]

Chig, I've heard several times that studies have shown the human brain volume to have actually decreased since the cave-men, but mostly during the middle-ages, probably due to malnutrition.
I can't recall if it's getting better now, but if it does, it sure seems a slow process.

Ah lord. What do you say to a post like that. Care to elaborate on who these "cave men" are? Were they dragging women around by their hair and hunting dinosaurs.

Yes, and they had wood&stone cars and every name had some variation of "stone" or stone type in it.

For all we know they were as smart as us, but limited by their technology.
Or are you saying 18th century geniuses were dimwits compared to us because they didn't know stuff we do?
Are modern age "stone-age" tribes in the amazonas dumber and inferior to you or me(well, to me of course, you can't compare me to mere mortals after all)?

Volume of brain matter does not equal intelligence. Looks like Orald isn't "always" right

I know it doesn't necessarilly, but in general bigger is better.
I didn't hear they had different brain structures, or any significant difference at least in "grey matter" volume.
And by some ways it does, or else scientists wouldn't bother measuring brain volumes on humanid anthropological finds and compare them to us and between themselves. It's called brain to body volume ratio.

Regarding neanthertals, scientists think they had a different thinking process than homo-sapiens.

[orald]

And where I live, 90% of the people are like that....and Mormon.

Are you kidding? Mormonism is the way to live, man!

I mean, having several wives, marrying teens etc. It's the life, man.

[Omphalos]

UFOs from the center of the Earth?!

Nonsense! Everyone knows they fly out of Uranus!

HA! Eat it!

Just disregard the "bizarre" language over there. They obviously have closed minds.

[SandChigger]

Regarding neanthertals, scientists think they had a different thinking process than homo-sapiens.

Oh, a reference, please!

[Tleilax Master B]

Chig, I've heard several times that studies have shown the human brain volume to have actually decreased since the cave-men, but mostly during the middle-ages, probably due to malnutrition.
I can't recall if it's getting better now, but if it does, it sure seems a slow process.

Ah lord. What do you say to a post like that. Care to elaborate on who these "cave men" are? Were they dragging women around by their hair and hunting dinosaurs.

Yes, and they had wood&stone cars and every name had some variation of "stone" or stone type in it.

For all we know they were as smart as us, but limited by their technology.
Or are you saying 18th century geniuses were dimwits compared to us because they didn't know stuff we do?
Are modern age "stone-age" tribes in the amazonas dumber and inferior to you or me(well, to me of course, you can't compare me to mere mortals after all)?

Volume of brain matter does not equal intelligence. Looks like Orald isn't "always" right

I know it doesn't necessarilly, but in general bigger is better.
I didn't hear they had different brain structures, or any significant difference at least in "grey matter" volume.
And by some ways it does, or else scientists wouldn't bother measuring brain volumes on humanid anthropological finds and compare them to us and between themselves. It's called brain to body volume ratio.

Regarding neanthertals, scientists think they had a different thinking process than homo-sapiens.

Dude, I have a Masters degree in Anthropology, and have studied hominid evolution and physical anthropology for years. I'm here to tell you that some of what you are saying is off base. Allow me to clear up a few of the fallacies you have listed above:

-There are no true "stone age" tribes in the Amazon. There is no such thing as a "pristine" culture anymore. Every group has been affected in some way by other modern cultures. That is an unfortunate anthropologic fact.

-sperm whales and elephants have larger brain sizes than humans and apes. Although it is true that the ratio of body size to brain volume is different. In all likliehood it is bipedalism that resulted in brain structure and capacity that we currently have. In fact, scientists have now demonstrated that brain size is less important than the frequency in which you use it--particularly when processing more complex concepts/thoughts. Neural pathways are built as you "learn", if your brain is not being used to its capacity, there is some evidence that you thin out those connections that aren't being used. It may in fact be the interfaces in different parts of the human brain that give them the intelligence capacity, rather than size per se.

-you will have to better define the term "smart" if you want to make the claim that "they" were as smart as us. If "smart" is the sum of knowledge acquired over a period of time, given the brain's capacity to process and retain such info, then you would be "wrong." "Dumber" and "inferior" are cultural constructs. They are defined by the culture of a given group and have little or no biological basis.

-I have absolutely no idea what you mean by neanderthals "think" differently than homo sapien sapien. A reference or elaborate further please. Neanderthal brain sizes averaged about 1450 cc, modern humans around 1350 cc. They actually had larger brains than homo sapien sapien; sort of disproving your larger brain=smarter theory (or maybe you do think they were "smarter"?)

-Variation of brain sizes within humans doesn't support your theory either. Brain sizesvary considerably within any species, but this variation is not usually related to intelligence. Instead, it correlates loosely with body size: large people tend to have larger brains. As a result, women on average will have smaller brains than men, and Pygmies will have smaller brains than Zulus, but the average intelligence of all these groups is, as far as we can tell, the same.

[orald]

I can't, I suck at searching the net. It was on a lengthy special by the *sigh* National Geographic channel.

Basically they said that some scientists think, by analysing their tools etc, that they might've been very good at concentrating on one subject at a time, but couldn't have multiple thought lines. Like if you chip away at a rock you can hum the latest Mammoth Records tune, but a neantherthal might've had difficulty doing that.
I didn't say it, they did, and they paid all that money for their stupid special. Blame them.

And I still hold my point that brain mass to body mass ratio does have some significance or else all those anthropologists are spewing blatant lies whenever they compare chimp brains to later humanids.

[Tleilax Master B]

I can't, I suck at searching the net. It was on a lengthy special by the *sigh* National Geographic channel.

Basically they said that some scientists think, by analysing their tools etc, that they might've been very good at concentrating on one subject at a time, but couldn't have multiple thought lines. Like if you chip away at a rock you can hum the latest Mammoth Records tune, but a neantherthal might've had difficulty doing that.
I didn't say it, they did, and they paid all that money for their stupid special. Blame them.

And I still hold my point that brain mass to body mass ratio does have some significance or else all those anthropologists are spewing blatant lies whenever they compare chimp brains to later humanids.

You are certainly welcome to believe whatever you want about "humanids"
I was just trying to get some learnin' up in ya. We anthropologist often make interpretations that are later disproved; we don't like calling them "lies" though

Seriously though, you are generally accurate in the assumption that the ratio of body mass to brain volume may be indicative (on a larger intra species scale) of higher brain functions. I'm just trying to illustrate its not quite that simple; there is a bit more that goes into it.

[orald]

That was my point- brain to body ratio has some indication, or at least that's what you guys claim.

By "dumb" or "smart" I meant what I think should be called "wisdom" in English, the "thinking capacity", not the knowledge level. So one can't say FH was dumber than us because he never saw, say, an iPod (actually, I think anyone who has seen an iPod loses brain cells ).

My point on neanthertals was that yes, they did have bigger brains on average, and maybe they were just as smart as us(go check those NGC guys with their stupid anthropology specials, they made those claims, and as far as we know, chimps think differently than us, dogs too, so maybe neanthertals as well).

Don't start with this whole "omg you don't say cave men" bullshit, you know what I mean by cave men. You want me to search wiki' for the specific names of periods of time when humans were hunter-gatherers? They didn't necessarilly sleep in caves either, right? But you know what it means. My whole point was "people from a long time ago, using very low technology". It still stands with modern day primitive tribes, and in fact I think they prove my point that they're not dumber just because they have less technology. If you go and show them the new technology they'll get it too.


I'm starting to lose sight of what started this line of debate- someone said, that he hopes humans are getting smarter as they go. To that I responded that I've heard studies(correct me if those studies have been proven wrong or never existed) have found out that we've actually lost brain volume during the middle ages compared to previous periods.
I didn't really mean to say we're getting stupider, but it was a joke about brain size and how we're getting dumber.

I bet what those studies, or people who mentioned them, didn't bother to say was that during the middle ages people were also a bit smaller, mainly due to bad nutrition. Could be I mistake middle ages to a broader period...some memory came up and it might've been "since the agricultural revolution" as opposed to hunting-gathering.
Wasn't it said that we got worse nutrition because of that?

[Omphalos]

It takes bigger brains to hold all the vital information necessary to:

1) Pilot a flying saucer.
2) Navigate the tight quarters when flying from the center of the Earth.
3) Communicate psychically with each other, and their Gods.

You anthropologist guys really make more problems than you solve. Sheesh!

[Tleilax Master B]

Fuck me. I hit edit instead of quote Orald. I totally fucked up your post. Let me try to fix it.....

(EDIT: I tried to put it back in order Orald, but may have screwed some of it up. Being a moderator and being able to edit people's posts requires paying attention to which freaking tab you hit I apologize. )

[Tleilax Master B]

That was my point- brain to body ratio has some indication, or at least that's what you guys claim.

By "dumb" or "smart" I meant what I think should be called "wisdom" in English, the "thinking capacity", not the knowledge level. So one can't say FH was dumber than us because he never saw, say, an iPod (actually, I think anyone who has seen an iPod loses brain cells ).

I would call it "intelligence" if I follow what you are trying to say. The old example is that if you are standing out in the rain, "intelligence" tells you water is falling from the sky, that its the result of various weather patterns caused by changes in temperature, pressure etc..... "Wisdom" tells you to get the fuck out of the rain before you catch a cold.

My point on neanthertals was that yes, they did have bigger brains on average, and maybe they were just as smart as us(go check those NGC guys with their stupid anthropology specials, they made those claims, and as far as we know, chimps think differently than us, dogs too, so maybe neanthertals as well).

Take everything you see on NGC with a grain of salt. This is a show for the general public and isn't going to give you all of the scientific details. I can tell you that we know very little about neanderthal and how they think. We do know they have some evidence of "culture" as we now define it.

Don't start with this whole "omg you don't say cave men" bullshit, you know what I mean by cave men. You want me to search wiki' for the specific names of periods of time when humans were hunter-gatherers? They didn't necessarilly sleep in caves either, right? But you know what it means. My whole point was "people from a long time ago, using very low technology". It still stands with modern day primitive tribes, and in fact I think they prove my point that they're not dumber just because they have less technology. If you go and show them the new technology they'll get it too.

Sounds like you are getting snippy with me, so I shall respond in kind. I have no fucking idea what you mean by "cave men", its such a fucking stupid term. Are you talking about neanderthal or homo sapiens? Paleolithic? "Stone-age" prehistoric homo sapiens, if you prefer? Hunter-gatherer societies are around TODAY, so that doesn't make any fucking sense either. The time when "human were hunter-gatherers" is NOW in some areas. Perhaps you mean "the time before the advent of agriculture"?

Whatever. OK, sure, if individual "A" was taken from "primitive" group A, removed at birth and placed in "modernized" society "B", yes, he would probably fare just fine.

I'm starting to lose sight of what started this line of debate- someone said, that he hopes humans are getting smarter as they go. To that I responded that I've heard studies(correct me if those studies have been proven wrong or never existed) have found out that we've actually lost brain volume during the middle ages compared to previous periods.
I didn't really mean to say we're getting stupider, but it was a joke about brain size and how we're getting dumber.

I bet what those studies, or people who mentioned them, didn't bother to say was that during the middle ages people were also a bit smaller, mainly due to bad nutrition. Could be I mistake middle ages to a broader period...some memory came up and it might've been "since the agricultural revolution" as opposed to hunting-gathering.
Wasn't it said that we got worse nutrition because of that?

Yes. It is a joke. Because though brain volume may have decreased as a result of malnutrition, its unlikely they are "dumber", see my statement above concerning the relationship of brain volume and overall body size.

Yes, individuals on a subsistence of primarily agriculture are probably receiving less overall positive nutrition than a hunter-gatherer society. The problem is risk. There is much greater risk to a group with a forager/collector subsistence strategy than agricultural subsistence strategies.

[GamePlayer]

There's a creationist museum in Kentucky that cost 27 million to build. They have displays showing that humans lived along side dinosaurs. The sad part is that they encourage schools to take field trips there, and some are more than happy to do it. I hear it's a big hit.

I think the States are getting worse. In the face of all this high speed information and rock solid evidence of old earth and evolution, these people just keep right on thumping their Bibles, and shunning anyone who doesn't agree with them. And where I live, 90% of the people are like that....and Mormon.

That's incredibly depressing

[Crysknife]

Fuck me. I hit edit instead of quote Orald. I totally fucked up your post. Let me try to fix it.....

(EDIT: I tried to put it back in order Orald, but may have screwed some of it up. Being a moderator and being able to edit people's posts requires paying attention to which freaking tab you hit I apologize. )

Hehe, I've done that twice already

[Omphalos]

There's a creationist museum in Kentucky that cost 27 million to build. They have displays showing that humans lived along side dinosaurs. The sad part is that they encourage schools to take field trips there, and some are more than happy to do it. I hear it's a big hit.

I think the States are getting worse. In the face of all this high speed information and rock solid evidence of old earth and evolution, these people just keep right on thumping their Bibles, and shunning anyone who doesn't agree with them. And where I live, 90% of the people are like that....and Mormon.

That's incredibly depressing

Sad, but not surprising. Religious fundamentalism has certainly had lots of good reasons to rear its ugly head in the last eight years, but science sure is not helping. Im not a scientist, but really, its only been the last year or so that scientists in the United States have been producing anything but consumer products. Its like all hard research ended there for several years, and all the brainiacs went to work for Clairol, Pfizer and Microsoft (OK, and weapons at Raytheon) and produced a bunch of shit that nobody needs. Only in the last year have I been seeing new products in the areas of robotics, legitimate medicine, rocketry, etc. I wish I knew what the real problem was there. As it is, the only thing I can say about that is FUCK BUSH for what he did to stem-cell research in this country. I cant wait til that dipshit coke-head is gone.

[SandChigger]

AMEN to that!

(What was the bullshit with him trotting his dumb ass out to Andrews to welcome the damned "If I'm not evil then fuck my Palatine-look-alike face" Pope Bene Dicked? )

Anyway....

The "Neanderthals couldn't multitask" stuff sounds REALLY suspect IMO FWIW.

The last time I read anything about it, the jury was still out on whether they had language like ours.

And in that connection, there's no such thing as a "primitive" language. Could waffle on on this one, but fear putting even myself to sleep.

[Omphalos]

The last time I read anything about it, the jury was still out on whether they had language like ours.

Goddammit! They were psychic! They had ESP man! Of course they didn't have a language like ours. I don't even think that they had tongues!

Anyway, so the Pope is evil, huh? This explanation should be good.

[Phaedrus]

The last time I read anything about it, the jury was still out on whether they had language like ours.

Goddammit! They were psychic! They had ESP man! Of course they didn't have a language like ours. I don't even think that they had tongues!

Anyway, so the Pope is evil, huh? This explanation should be good.

Wait, have you not seen the pictures?

[SandChigger]

^^^ That's what I'm talkin' about.