Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

We all praise Frank Herbert for his Dune books especially the first one.

But the majority of fans despise what Dune has become and frequently attack the new authors.

Of course we are allowed to do so, but I must emphasize this: We hate the HLP but many are blood related or knew Frank Herbert well a man many of us call a genius.

I once claimed that if Frank would not stand for what Dune has become, then he must have some sense of betrayal because people he knew well and members of his own family are those who take Dune in this new direction and accepted KJA. But I got no nods of agreement.

I know, I know Frank has no say anymore because he is dead. But the HLP consists of MANY of his family members who must consider: what would Frank have wanted?

Remember that Brian is Frank's SON. So he rightfully inherited Dune. Of course Frank would be proud of his son weather or not he wrote good or bad books, as long as he is a success in earning a living. So in this case, this was the plan for the Dune series all along and he KNEW that his own son would reduce the literature value of his books.

Otherwise there is this scenario:
Frank was a loner who did not connect much with his family and focused more on his books so he did not realize that his whole family were a bunch of idiots. In this case I'd assume that either he couldn't care less what his legacy would be or that he would indeed feel betrayed.

Because we certainly know that Frank was not stupid. How else can you explain how he did not safeguard Brian from accepting Kevin and writing these mediocre Dune books?

What am I trying to convey here? Well either concede to one of the following:

Frank knew this would happen and would have been happy with the way things are now and is proud of his son.

or,

Frank would have a sense of betrayal that members of his own family accepted a hack into the gang and thus reducing the quality of his work.

Otherwise explain to me how a genius like Frank Herbert whom we praise for writing those Dune novels be completely out of touch with the reality that he was a member of a family of idiots that would bring down his legacy. Because like I said before: if he knew this, He would have found a way to protect his literary works. And From what Byron describes about him, I'd say that he was a family kind of guy.

Well, he did hide his outline for Dune 7 from them. I think that says it all.

Oh yeah forgot about that.

Well he did not hide them good enough. So I guess what you are saying (freakzilla) is yes he was expecting like this, but he tried and failed to prevent it. But still that leaves the question in the air: What would he think of what has happened?

a. Great! My son is making a living.

b. Damn you my stupid son!

FreakZ wrote:Well, he did hide his outline for Dune 7 from them. I think that says it all.

Nebiros wrote:Well he did not hide them good enough. So I guess what you are saying (freakzilla) is yes he was expecting like this, but he tried and failed to prevent it.

Or did he? Last time I looked the hacks haven't found any outline or notes contaning plotlines for either Dune 7 or concerning the history of the Duniverse.
Or did they fool you with claiming they did?

Nebiros wrote:I know, I know Frank has no say anymore because he is dead.

Blasphemy! Frank lives in death!

Freakzilla wrote:Well, he did hide his outline for Dune 7 from them. I think that says it all.

Nebiros, I seem to remember your having started another goddamned fool thread something like this one over at Arrakeen before it died.

What the fuck?

Byron is a member here, too, but do you really think you're racking up points with the Holy Herberts by posting this sort of kiss-ass bullshit everywhere you join?

The fact that Brian is Frank's son gives him certain legal rights to do with Frank's legacy as he pleases. NOBODY ARGUES WITH THAT POINT and it's ultimately uninteresting.

Brian lost any moral right he had to continue writing Dune material when he brought that hack Anderson into the picture and either betrayed the spirit of his father's legacy for the sake of pure financial gain or was too stupid to understand when Anderson began doing so.

Unfortunately, legal rights trump moral ones in our world. If you want to suck up to the Herberts, why not do it where more people will see it and praise you, over on their website dedicated to ass-kissers. I seriously doubt anyone here is going to be impressed by this sort of thing.

Nebiros wrote: Otherwise explain to me how a genius like Frank Herbert whom we praise for writing those Dune novels be completely out of touch with the reality that he was a member of a family of idiots that would bring down his legacy. Because like I said before: if he knew this, He would have found a way to protect his literary works. And From what Byron describes about him, I'd say that he was a family kind of guy.

What a bull shit!

It took Brian 13 years before he started publishing the crap he calls books. He has been terrified that Frank would indeed haunt him for releasing the ultimate insult to the man's great work.

Have you actually read any of the prequals? The books themselves are the proof Brian loath his father even more then I do mine ...

The legacy of Frank isn't brought down by the sub par level of the new Dune and he didn't need to protect his literary works. Sometimes I think Frank put Brian up to it to release new books to play that final trick on his failure of a son.

Your post is just a bunch of dodging, smoke and mirrors. We're not obligated to explain some ridiculous hypothetical situation about what Frank Herbert might have done or what he should have foreseen. The current state of the Dune intellectual property is the work of Brian Herbert, Kevin J Anderson and the fools at the HLP. No one else.

One thing is for certain: Frank Herbert wrote his books out of creative impulse to give something artistic and entertaining to the world of literature and he never expected to make a dime. KJA and BH are hacks exploiting a beloved science fiction series until it becomes a fast food, bazaar mockery of itself for the sole purpose of selling books under a branded, franchised name. They exploit the mediocre climate of entertainment in which we live without conscience and latch onto Dune for the sake of money, nothing more.

That's the truth. Sell spin somewhere else.

Wow. Even I don't post shit this stupid and/or pointless. I kept reading your post, Nebiros, waiting for a punch line, or even a valid question... it just didn't come.

What am I trying to convey here? Well either concede to one of the following:

Frank knew this would happen and would have been happy with the way things are now and is proud of his son.

or,

Frank would have a sense of betrayal that members of his own family accepted a hack into the gang and thus reducing the quality of his work.

Otherwise explain to me how a genius like Frank Herbert whom we praise for writing those Dune novels be completely out of touch with the reality that he was a member of a family of idiots that would bring down his legacy. Because like I said before: if he knew this, He would have found a way to protect his literary works. And From what Byron describes about him, I'd say that he was a family kind of guy.

Seriously? You really think that just because FH saw (or didn't) that his son was a weak writer he should have found a way pull his legal rights to the Dune series? I admit this may look good in hindsight, but at the time... that's expecting FH to be unbelievable cold considering that BH hadn't actually done anything wrong yet. Shit man, FH didn't have prescience, he just wrote about it.

Are we supposed to respect these people just because they're related to FH?

If anything I respect them less because they are related. They should be that much more careful with his contributions to the world.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Shit man, FH didn't have prescience, he just wrote about it.

Actually, in that famous interview of his that pops up from time to time in discussions, he did confess to have had an eery streak of card-reading, where he foresaw all the cards of a deck(or several?) in his youth.


But I say he pre-marked them in order to impress that girl he was spending time with, even though he claims to have been after her sister at the time.

Many are Herberts, but others are Andersons.

(Brian in his own book (oops, sorry, Byron doesn't want us to mention material from this...too upsetting ) that during college he didn't even know his dad wrote Dune until someone said something to him while hitch hiking and most likely hitch hiking to get away from dad.)

Nebiros wrote:Remember that Brian is Frank's SON. So he rightfully inherited Dune.

That means nothing, unless Brian can chat to Frank in Other Memory on how to write Dune 7.

Oh Nebby, you've gone and done it again!

Nebiros wrote:Remember that Brian is Frank's SON. So he rightfully inherited Dune.

I still say he could be adopted or maybe Frank's wife cheated on him.

I demand a DNA check ASAP!

The Herbert family loved and respected Frank. Many a Thanksgiving was spent at his home in Port Townsend with everyone gathered. Even I, in my childhood, talked with Frank about Dune items.

Our goal is to keep Frank's vision alive. It deserves it. It doesn't deserve the trash that has spilled forth on this thread, that's for sure.

I feel nauseated after reading this tripe.

Spice Grandson wrote:I feel nauseated after reading this tripe.

A taste of how we feel after reading how KJA is keepinig the vision alive.

But our opinions don't matter, we're just a vocal minority.

I don't doubt it was at least an ordinarily loving family(more than can be said about mine ), but when the son teams up with a pulp writer to churn out a book a year, of very poor quality and full of inconsistencies, you have to wonder how much does Brian care for Frank's legacy.

With the treatment he's done to his father's legacy there's only the official "pissing on the gravestone" part left to showing total hatred of the man.

If I went and put in D&D bits into a sequel to LoTR(mind you, at least Wizards of The Coast seem to invest alot in their gaming systems), could you say it was done in good taste or that I'm not insulting JRRT's memory?
Oh, wait, I don't have to do it, Peter "Dwarf Tosser" Jackson already did.

Spice Grandson wrote:The Herbert family loved and respected Frank. Many a Thanksgiving was spent at his home in Port Townsend with everyone gathered. Even I, in my childhood, talked with Frank about Dune items.

Our goal is to keep Frank's vision alive. It deserves it. It doesn't deserve the trash that has spilled forth on this thread, that's for sure.

I feel nauseated after reading this tripe.

I don't think anyone doubts that your family was a normal loving one.. but we do seriously doubt that any of you care about keeping his vision alive. There's nothing wrong with making a buck anyway you can, just don't expect any of us to believe P&tB are writing these books for any other reason.

Mandy wrote: I don't think anyone doubts that your family was a normal loving one

Really? Have you read this thread?

Mandy wrote:..but we do seriously doubt that any of you care about keeping his vision alive. There's nothing wrong with making a buck anyway you can, just don't expect any of us to believe P&tB are writing these books for any other reason.

Have you seen the increase in sales of Frank Herbert's original series (Amazon, etc.)? And the fact that a new movie deal has been struck? And that publishers are now re-releasing the original series in hardcover again? And that many of Frank's non-Dune books have been re-released, too? So exactly how does that equate to not keeping Frank's worlds alive?

You could've made a movie deal before or without Brian's books.
You could've pushed for reprinting without them.
In fact, it seems until Brian decided he wants a new car/swimming pool he didn't do a bloody thing with it.

The only good that has ever come out of the crap P&B are spewing out is some Preeks who have discovered the folly of their pulp sci-fi reading and have come over to the light of FH's true novels after reading them(some are onboard this very board as you doubtless know).

You know what Brian's books are like? They're like Westwood's Dune games- they've got the "Dune" title, some Dunish names and that's it(at least they were good though, more than can be said about Brian's attempts).
Can you honestly call any of the Dune RTS games "canon", or their plots "good literature"?

Spice Grandson wrote:

Mandy wrote: I don't think anyone doubts that your family was a normal loving one

Really? Have you read this thread?

Mandy wrote:..but we do seriously doubt that any of you care about keeping his vision alive. There's nothing wrong with making a buck anyway you can, just don't expect any of us to believe P&tB are writing these books for any other reason.

Have you seen the increase in sales of Frank Herbert's original series (Amazon, etc.)? And the fact that a new movie deal has been struck? And that publishers are now re-releasing the original series in hardcover again? And that many of Frank's non-Dune books have been re-released, too? So exactly how does that equate to not keeping Frank's worlds alive?

Uhm ... who benefits most from this?

The OH's or the HLP?

How does it keep his VISION alive? There are EIGHT dune related releases already and at least four more in the making that are destroying every and all of Franks visionary Chronicles.
The re-release of his novels and the movie deal are just side-products of a clever business plan, nothing more nothing less.

Release the notes. Then you have respect for the man's visions, not by spouting out fourth rate piles of dung every year that contradict most of his ideas and philosophies.

And tell KJA in our name to stop writing for a penny a word, he better start his own religion, like his mentor.

Spice Grandson wrote:

Mandy wrote: I don't think anyone doubts that your family was a normal loving one

Really? Have you read this thread?

Mandy wrote:..but we do seriously doubt that any of you care about keeping his vision alive. There's nothing wrong with making a buck anyway you can, just don't expect any of us to believe P&tB are writing these books for any other reason.

Have you seen the increase in sales of Frank Herbert's original series (Amazon, etc.)? And the fact that a new movie deal has been struck? And that publishers are now re-releasing the original series in hardcover again? And that many of Frank's non-Dune books have been re-released, too? So exactly how does that equate to not keeping Frank's worlds alive?

Yeah, and I just read it again.. still didn't see anything that would indicate your family wasn't normal. Oh I saw the posts you are probably referring to but Orald posts for shock value to get a laugh. You are the internet representative for the HLP, it would probably be a good idea to develop a thicker skin.

I'm glad FH's work is being republished, but do you truly believe that BH and KJA are adding to his legacy? Why did they dumb it down? Why are they pumping out one crappy book after the other? If FH's legacy was their concern, it would have made more sense to write the finale as best they could and then move on with their own universes. Heroes of Dune? Come on.. there are no holes in the original six novels that need to be filled.

Oh, it must be slow over at Dumbnovels. This old argument is trying to rear it's ugly head.

Now, where is that damn smiley. Oh, here it is (my thanks Freak Z)