Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I was perusing Dune and came upon a Hawat-centric passage. For
context it is shortly after the Harkonnen/Imperial attack on Arrakis. Paul
and Jessica are on the run in the desert, and Hawat is bartering with a
Fremen for help [mercy] for his remaining men.

Dune, Ch 24 wrote: This had been the worst night of Hawat's life. He had been at
Tsimpo, a garrison village, buffer outpost for the former capital city,
Carthag, when the reports of attack began arriving. At first, he'd
thought: It's a raid. The Harkonnens are testing.
But report followed report--faster and faster.
Two legions landed at Carthag.
Five legions--fifty brigades! --attacking the Duke's main base
at Arrakeen.
A legion at Arsunt.
Two battle groups at Splintered Rock.
Then the reports became more detailed--there were Imperial
Sardaukar among the attackers--possibly two legions of them. And it
became clear that the invaders knew precisely which weight of arms to
send where. Precisely! Superb Intelligence.
Hawat's shocked fury had mounted until it threatened the smooth
functioning of his Mentat capabilities. The size of the attack struck
his mind like a physical blow.
Now, hiding beneath a bit of desert rock, he nodded to himself,
pulled his torn and slashed tunic around him as though warding off the
cold shadows.
The size of the attack.
He had always expected their enemy to hire an occasional lighter
from the Guild for probing raids. That was an ordinary enough gambit in
this kind of House-to-House warfare. Lighters landed and took off on
Arrakis regularly to transport the spice for House Atreides. Hawat had
taken precautions against random raids by false spice lighters. For a
full attack they'd expected no more than ten brigades.
But there were more than two thousand ships down on Arrakis at
the last count--not just lighters, but frigates, scouts, monitors,
crushers, troop-carriers, dump-boxes . . .
More than a hundred brigades--ten legions!
The entire spice income of Arrakis for fifty years might just
cover the cost of such a venture.
It might.
I underestimated what the Baron was willing to spend in
attacking us, Hawat thought. I failed my Duke.

In the grand scheme of things this isn't a major cornerstone to the text,
but...I would think a mentat would still have considered the possibility of
the scale of the attack. Even though there probably wasn't much the
Atreides could have done about it, a mentat should have considered the
possibility and made what contingency plans they could.

OR

Is Hawat off the hook? Was the magnitude of the invasion so huge that
Hawat was correct in dismissing such a possibility?

On a secondary note, was there any historical evidence of the Imperium
moving against another House? Hawat implies that the Landsraad would be
spittin' mad if they got wind of Sardukar involvement, so obviously this
was risky for Shadam. But was this precedent setting?

Spicelon wrote: Is Hawat off the hook? Was the magnitude of the invasion so huge that
Hawat was correct in dismissing such a possibility?

Simply put, yes.

The Baron paid for transportation of his troops, the sardaukar, all their equipment and undoubtablly lots of bribes etc.
It cost him, and I quote from the same source as you did:

But there were more than two thousand ships down on Arrakis at the last count--not just lighters, but frigates, scouts, monitors, crushers, troopcarriers, dump-boxes . . .
More than a hundred brigades--ten legions!
The entire spice income of Arrakis for fifty years might just cover the cost of such a venture.

Can you even begin to imagine what collosal invasion force we're talking about here? Think, even in relative terms, D-Day plus some, and you gotta pay to fly it all at outrageous extra costs(military transportation by the Guild costs extra).

Spicelon wrote:On a secondary note, was there any historical evidence of the Imperium moving against another House? Hawat implies that the Landsraad would be spittin' mad if they got wind of Sardukar involvement, so obviously this
was risky for Shadam. But was this precedent setting?

In the long history of it, probably, but never on such large a scale, and always in disguise or it could mean "civil war"(could that term really be used for a war between the Emperor and the landsraad?).
And it's not the Imperium per-se, you probably mean the Emperor.
The Imperium means Emperor+landsraad+Guild+BG etc.

Some technical note here, could you edit your quote to be in quote block and not code? It looks wierd and harder to read, I'm sure you clicked it by mistake.

orald wrote:Some technical note here, could you edit your quote to be in quote block and not code? It looks wierd and harder to read, I'm sure you clicked it by mistake.

It was not a mistake.

Here I'll do it for you

This had been the worst night of Hawat's life. He had been at
Tsimpo, a garrison village, buffer outpost for the former capital city,
Carthag, when the reports of attack began arriving. At first, he'd
thought: It's a raid. The Harkonnens are testing.
But report followed report--faster and faster.
Two legions landed at Carthag.
Five legions--fifty brigades! --attacking the Duke's main base
at Arrakeen.
A legion at Arsunt.
Two battle groups at Splintered Rock.
Then the reports became more detailed--there were Imperial
Sardaukar among the attackers--possibly two legions of them. And it
became clear that the invaders knew precisely which weight of arms to
send where. Precisely! Superb Intelligence.
Hawat's shocked fury had mounted until it threatened the smooth
functioning of his Mentat capabilities. The size of the attack struck
his mind like a physical blow.
Now, hiding beneath a bit of desert rock, he nodded to himself,
pulled his torn and slashed tunic around him as though warding off the
cold shadows.
The size of the attack.
He had always expected their enemy to hire an occasional lighter
from the Guild for probing raids. That was an ordinary enough gambit in
this kind of House-to-House warfare. Lighters landed and took off on
Arrakis regularly to transport the spice for House Atreides. Hawat had
taken precautions against random raids by false spice lighters. For a
full attack they'd expected no more than ten brigades.
But there were more than two thousand ships down on Arrakis at
the last count--not just lighters, but frigates, scouts, monitors,
crushers, troop-carriers, dump-boxes . . .
More than a hundred brigades--ten legions!
The entire spice income of Arrakis for fifty years might just
cover the cost of such a venture.
It might.
I underestimated what the Baron was willing to spend in
attacking us, Hawat thought. I failed my Duke.

I agree with Orald.. the scope of the invasion was more than anyone could imagine... although I find it a bit hard to believe that such a vast conspiracy could be pulled off without someone getting wind of it.

Regarding the Imperium moving against the Houses.. there must have been a time when that was at least a threat or the Landsraad wouldn't have safe guards against it.

Mandy wrote:Here I'll do it for you

This had been the worst night of Hawat's life. He had been at
Tsimpo, a garrison village, buffer outpost for the former capital city,
Carthag, when the reports of attack began arriving. At first, he'd
thought: It's a raid. The Harkonnens are testing.
But report followed report--faster and faster.
Two legions landed at Carthag.
Five legions--fifty brigades! --attacking the Duke's main base
at Arrakeen.
A legion at Arsunt.
Two battle groups at Splintered Rock.
Then the reports became more detailed--there were Imperial
Sardaukar among the attackers--possibly two legions of them. And it
became clear that the invaders knew precisely which weight of arms to
send where. Precisely! Superb Intelligence.
Hawat's shocked fury had mounted until it threatened the smooth
functioning of his Mentat capabilities. The size of the attack struck
his mind like a physical blow.
Now, hiding beneath a bit of desert rock, he nodded to himself,
pulled his torn and slashed tunic around him as though warding off the
cold shadows.
The size of the attack.
He had always expected their enemy to hire an occasional lighter
from the Guild for probing raids. That was an ordinary enough gambit in
this kind of House-to-House warfare. Lighters landed and took off on
Arrakis regularly to transport the spice for House Atreides. Hawat had
taken precautions against random raids by false spice lighters. For a
full attack they'd expected no more than ten brigades.
But there were more than two thousand ships down on Arrakis at
the last count--not just lighters, but frigates, scouts, monitors,
crushers, troop-carriers, dump-boxes . . .
More than a hundred brigades--ten legions!
The entire spice income of Arrakis for fifty years might just
cover the cost of such a venture.
It might.
I underestimated what the Baron was willing to spend in
attacking us, Hawat thought. I failed my Duke.

I agree with Orald.. the scope of the invasion was more than anyone could imagine... although I find it a bit hard to believe that such a vast conspiracy could be pulled off without someone getting wind of it.

Regarding the Imperium moving against the Houses.. there must have been a time when that was at least a threat or the Landsraad wouldn't have safe guards against it.

I believe the Landsraad was formed as a balance against the Imperial military (Sardaukar). Only united can they stand against the emperor.

the problem with the Quote tag is that it doesn't allow for paragraph formatting. I bet you the font and font color for the Code tag could be changed in the template. I dunno.

Mandy wrote:Here I'll do it for you

This had been the worst night of Hawat's life. He had been at
Tsimpo, a garrison village, buffer outpost for the former capital city,
Carthag, when the reports of attack began arriving. At first, he'd
thought: It's a raid. The Harkonnens are testing.
But report followed report--faster and faster.
Two legions landed at Carthag.
Five legions--fifty brigades! --attacking the Duke's main base
at Arrakeen.
A legion at Arsunt.
Two battle groups at Splintered Rock.
Then the reports became more detailed--there were Imperial
Sardaukar among the attackers--possibly two legions of them. And it
became clear that the invaders knew precisely which weight of arms to
send where. Precisely! Superb Intelligence.
Hawat's shocked fury had mounted until it threatened the smooth
functioning of his Mentat capabilities. The size of the attack struck
his mind like a physical blow.
Now, hiding beneath a bit of desert rock, he nodded to himself,
pulled his torn and slashed tunic around him as though warding off the
cold shadows.
The size of the attack.
He had always expected their enemy to hire an occasional lighter
from the Guild for probing raids. That was an ordinary enough gambit in
this kind of House-to-House warfare. Lighters landed and took off on
Arrakis regularly to transport the spice for House Atreides. Hawat had
taken precautions against random raids by false spice lighters. For a
full attack they'd expected no more than ten brigades.
But there were more than two thousand ships down on Arrakis at
the last count--not just lighters, but frigates, scouts, monitors,
crushers, troop-carriers, dump-boxes . . .
More than a hundred brigades--ten legions!
The entire spice income of Arrakis for fifty years might just
cover the cost of such a venture.
It might.
I underestimated what the Baron was willing to spend in
attacking us, Hawat thought. I failed my Duke.

I agree with Orald.. the scope of the invasion was more than anyone could imagine... although I find it a bit hard to believe that such a vast conspiracy could be pulled off without someone getting wind of it.

Regarding the Imperium moving against the Houses.. there must have been a time when that was at least a threat or the Landsraad wouldn't have safe guards against it.

They had wind of it. They knew it was coming. They just didnt know it would be so big, kind of like D-Day.

Omphalos wrote:They had wind of it. They knew it was coming. They just didnt know it would be so big, kind of like D-Day.

Yes, they specifically mention the Emperor will send sardaukar in Harkonnen livery, but they anticipated only limited forces, considering the great cost.

Leto&Paul, before the trip to Arrakis wrote:"The Emperor," Paul said. "That means the Sardaukar."
"Disguised in Harkonnen livery, no doubt," the Duke said. "But the soldier fanatics nonetheless."

At the war council wrote:"We don't have much time, as you well know. They'll be here with Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens at the first opportunity. How many do you think they'll ship in, Thufir?"
"Four or five battalions all told, Sire. No more. Guild troop-transport costs being what they are."
"Then five battalions of Fremen plus our own forces ought to do it. Let us have a few captive Sardaukar to parade in front of the Landsraad Council and matters will be much different--profits or no profits."

I know they knew there would be Sardaukar dressed as Harkonnens.. I'm talking about the huge force. That is a lot of people to move secretly.

Mandy wrote:I know they knew there would be Sardaukar dressed as Harkonnens.. I'm talking about the huge force. That is a lot of people to move secretly.

True, but with the Guild in on it they (Emperor/Baron) wouldn't have had too hard of a time keeping a lid on it I would think.

You mean the mobilazation process? Well, there are spies, but seems they weren't enough or good enough.
Remember, you can't view your enemy with satellites etc when each has his own planterty system which he fiercly protects from all strangers.

Besides, if the spies didn't find out the magnitude of forces involved well ahead of the invasion, there's nothing to do. After all, the Guild picks up troops from orbit around the planet, jumps to Arrakis and wham, you're swarmed with sardaukar. This isn't something you can watch and preper for like in terrestrial battles.

I think we're all agreed (it's in the text, after all) that Leto and Hawat etc.
were expecting an attack, even Imperial involvement. And though it wasn't
explicitly stated, I'm sure that Leto and Hawat expected the attackers to have
some intelligence on the Atreides. But the original quoted text implies that
Hawat ruled out a massive assault based on economics. I was just
wandering if Hawat, by being a mentat, should have at least given that
possibility some traction.

Spicelon wrote:I think we're all agreed (it's in the text, after all) that Leto and Hawat etc.
were expecting an attack, even Imperial involvement. And though it wasn't
explicitly stated, I'm sure that Leto and Hawat expected the attackers to have
some intelligence on the Atreides. But the original quoted text implies that
Hawat ruled out a massive assault based on economics. I was just
wandering if Hawat, by being a mentat, should have at least given that
possibility some traction.

I think you have answered your own question. The Atreides knew they walked into a Harkonnen trap backed-up by the Emperor. Hawat ruled out ... did think about it, but decided/processed it was too expensive ... that it would happen on this large a scale.

I don't know if one could have reasonably expected Hawat to anticipate just how much the Harkonnens had saved up, he probably did consider a larger force seriously, but decided it was improbable enough that he was confident in his calculations of the numbers they would send.

Spicelon wrote: In the grand scheme of things this isn't a major cornerstone to the text,
but...I would think a mentat would still have considered the possibility of
the scale of the attack. Even though there probably wasn't much the
Atreides could have done about it, a mentat should have considered the
possibility and made what contingency plans they could.

OR

Is Hawat off the hook? Was the magnitude of the invasion so huge that
Hawat was correct in dismissing such a possibility?

Hawat is off the hook, because NO ONE anticipated the scale of the Harkonnen attack. And, even if they could contemplate it, there would be nothing to be done about it. It was an overwhelming attack and even if Yueh hadn't of betrayed the Duke, it would still have been a complete Harkonnen victory.

As a Mentat, Thufir probably did consider the possibility of an overwhelming attack, but likely didn't waste too many cycles thinking about it because: A) it was a fairly remote possibility and would detract from preparations for a much more likely limited attack and B) there wouldn't be anything the Atreides could do about it if it came.

What's always bothered me about the attack was not that the Atreides didn't anticipate it, it was simply the timing of it. A week (or so) after the Atreides arrived? That, to me, was too quick. You could say the Harkonnens wanted to attack before the Atreides sank roots into Arrakis, but invading a week after the change of fief always seemed unrealistic to me.

I still think Yueh's treachery was the one thing Hawat failed to calculate properly, and that Yueh was the only way the Imperial/Harkonnen plan could be guaranteed to work. Hawat's mistake may have been to take the suk school's PR too seriously, but this was probably more a question of data than anything else. Remember this:

Dune wrote:He said: "You didn't know that my wife, my Wanna . . . " He shrugged, unable
to speak past a sudden constriction in his throat. Then: "They . . . " The words
would not come out. He felt panic, closed his eyes tightly, experiencing the
agony in his chest and little else until a hand touched his arm gently.
"Forgive me," Jessica said. "I did not mean to open an old wound." And she
thought: Those animals! His wife was Bene Gesserit--the signs are all over him.
And it's obvious the Harkonnens killed her. Here's another poor victim bound to
the Atreides by a cherem of hate.

Atreides intelligence either hadn't collected data on Yueh's wife, or else it wasn't shared with Jessica at any meeting. Either way this kind of gap in data is just the sort of thing that could throw Thufir off in his calculations. The Baron tells Thufir later that his talents weren't used to full potential with such a limited family budget, and Thufir didn't contest this point.

Given the amount of time spent in Dune dealing with the traitor sub-plot, and how little was spent on any other element of the invasion, it seems to me like the most relevant factor Frank needed us to know was that the Atreides were betrayed and that this destroyed them. Imagine how differently events might have gone had Leto or Paul been in command of the defensive forces, with shields up, with the Fremen rallying to them. Buying just a little time, and just one short conversation with Liet while besieged, an entire Fremen legion could have been in Arrakeen before the battle's end drenching the ground with Sardaukar blood. But even ignoring the possibility of Fremen aid for the moment, it would have opened too many possibilities for the Atreides to do something annoying and to make it hard to keep the whole operation a secret.

To give weight to the level to which Yueh's treachery was the major influence in the course of the book's events, consider also that his double-treachery is the only reason Paul and Jessica survived. Yueh's choices not only destroyed the Atreides, but also destroyed the Harkonnens, and inadvertently also Shaddam's Imperium. Granted, his motivation was personal revenge and not political, but I think Yueh was the one wildcard that everyone thought was safe and could be ignored as a threat and turned out to cause fire storms on all sides. Both he, and Jessica too, introduced a wild, random element to the universe, and their personal choices changed everything. Paul, by comparison, made no choices at all - he just did what he was set up by others to do and what he had to do. Jessica and Yueh, at distinct moment, had neither the past nor the future - they had the now. Hawat couldn't calculate for that; no one can.

Hawat's mistake may have been to take the suk school's PR too seriously,...

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on that, it's apparently a forgone conclusion that had been vetted
long before. "Safe to the emperor himself." Note the barons piddling subterfuge, 'we discovered a false doctor'

Two points;
The greatest betrayal, perfect intel- the baron knew to a man what troops were where.

Hawat admits he'd underestimated haw far the baron would go. Vlad says the Arrakis
affair cost him 30 years gross spice production.

Well, it certainly calls into question the quality of the "Suk conditioning". If all it takes is to kidnap and torture a loved one of a Suk-conditioned person to get them to do your bidding, that doesn't seem like anything different from a normal person.

I think the explanation in the book is inadequate. I would think they would have to do more to get Yueh to overcome his conditioning. Or perhaps you could make the assertion that Yueh was a special case and that the conditioning, for reasons unique to him and his psychological makeup, didn't take.

jakoye wrote:Well, it certainly calls into question the quality of the "Suk conditioning". If all it takes is to kidnap and torture a loved one of a Suk-conditioned person to get them to do your bidding, that doesn't seem like anything different from a normal person.

I think the explanation in the book is inadequate. I would think they would have to do more to get Yueh to overcome his conditioning. Or perhaps you could make the assertion that Yueh was a special case and that the conditioning, for reasons unique to him and his psychological makeup, didn't take.

My guess is that Frank thought the details wouldn't advance the plot. He had the habit of
giving just enough to get the idea then allowing the reader to fill in the rest. Remember
that Dune was rejected by almost every publisher for being too long. This is probably why
prequels are the current fad.

That's an excellent point, DPope. I've recommended the book to a lot of people and some have liked it and some have not. But no one has liked it in quite the way that I do. I speculate that may be because of instances like this: imagination is needed to fill in the background details that Herbert left out. For some, that's too much for a book to ask from them. They want it all there, in black and white. But the book is more interesting, and more personal, when you can fill-in-the-blanks yourself.

D Pope wrote:

jakoye wrote:Well, it certainly calls into question the quality of the "Suk conditioning". If all it takes is to kidnap and torture a loved one of a Suk-conditioned person to get them to do your bidding, that doesn't seem like anything different from a normal person.

I think the explanation in the book is inadequate. I would think they would have to do more to get Yueh to overcome his conditioning. Or perhaps you could make the assertion that Yueh was a special case and that the conditioning, for reasons unique to him and his psychological makeup, didn't take.

My guess is that Frank thought the details wouldn't advance the plot. He had the habit of
giving just enough to get the idea then allowing the reader to fill in the rest. Remember
that Dune was rejected by almost every publisher for being too long. This is probably why
prequels are the current fad.

It seems that Frank just preferred to skip the details and let the actions and plot advance through conversation. This is why Dune books can be very hard to read as each dialogue must be filtered for fluff and plot advance. Most of the "action" happens through conversation - which is both good and bad. For example *SPOILER* at the end of Dune Messiah (just recently read) Edric and Mohiam dies off-screen. We don't really need to know how they die - we just need to know that because they characters need some closure. We can use our imagination how possibly they could kill a guild navigator in a tank (maybe cut him and his tank to bits with lasguns or just blow him up with explosives who knows?). If Bobo & Hack would had to write this scene it would take at least two chapters including some horrible dialogue, characters not thinking straight and boredom ending just in the same *END SPOILER*.

I am just terrified reading the Butlerian Jihad trilogy how monstrously long are those books (first book is even longer than Dune!) and how very little is going to advance the plot. I don't mean "action" - there are ships flying, people killing, machines shooting and so on but there is so little accomplished overall. I am reading Butlerian Jihad and Children of Dune at the same time - I try to read 50 pages each day but BJ (haha) I put down after 25-30 while CoD I slammed 150 pages in one day - even though the twins are annoying little shits to me and those tigers should eat them for lunch. Volume is not the answer and bigger doesn't mean better (at least for books).

MuaB'Beep wrote:For example *SPOILER* at the end of Dune Messiah (just recently read) Edric and Mohiam dies off-screen. We don't really need to know how they die - we just need to know that because they characters need some closure. We can use our imagination how possibly they could kill a guild navigator in a tank (maybe cut him and his tank to bits with lasguns or just blow him up with explosives who knows?).

I know this isn't your point but it was even less FH's point that they were killed but that Stilgar did it in disobedience of Paul's orders. I believe there's a cut scene in Road to Dune where Alia puts a hole in Edric's tank with a lasgun. Been a while since I read that one.

I think the scale of the invasion was totally unprecedented in the history of the imperium. FH made numerous references to Guild's transport costs in Dune, and how this enforced a relative peace. This was a special, one off event, so I don't blame Thufir for not anticipating it, even as a mentat. There are lots of things that bug me about Dune the feel wrong or inconsistent in the universe we come to know later, but this is one thing that I find utterly believable/understandable and in-character.

A lot of people have said there was nothing they could have done, but I think they could/would have gone renegade had they thought this scale invasion was likely. They were already thinking about it when being forced to walk into the trap of what they thought was a normal scale invasion. Had they gotten wind of any of this, they would have bugged out instantly I think.

As for the time scale, was it really a week between the Atreides arriving and the invasion? I know FH likes to shift time without explaining much of what happened in the interim, so I always thought that the initial stages of the Atreides occupation were just glossed over. I can't imagine the dinner party was within a week of their arrival.

pcqypcqy wrote: A lot of people have said there was nothing they could have done, but I think they could/would have gone renegade had they thought this scale invasion was likely. They were already thinking about it when being forced to walk into the trap of what they thought was a normal scale invasion. Had they gotten wind of any of this, they would have bugged out instantly I think.

They had other tools at their disposal had they seen it coming. Exposure would be the most effective, as the Landsraad would have prevented it themselves. The attack either had to be totally secret or else be called off. Also, even if the attack happened as planned but the shield stayed up, it might have allowed the Atreides to stall long enough to send word about what was happening. The Sardaukar were only going to stay so long as the Emperor wasn't implicated.

georgiedenbro wrote:

pcqypcqy wrote: A lot of people have said there was nothing they could have done, but I think they could/would have gone renegade had they thought this scale invasion was likely. They were already thinking about it when being forced to walk into the trap of what they thought was a normal scale invasion. Had they gotten wind of any of this, they would have bugged out instantly I think.

They had other tools at their disposal had they seen it coming. Exposure would be the most effective, as the Landsraad would have prevented it themselves. The attack either had to be totally secret or else be called off. Also, even if the attack happened as planned but the shield stayed up, it might have allowed the Atreides to stall long enough to send word about what was happening. The Sardaukar were only going to stay so long as the Emperor wasn't implicated.

These are all good points.

Depends on how invovled/complicit the Guild were in all of this. At the very least, they knew about it all to have permitted the transport of all the troops. Any communication would had to have been via the guild, or else a radio signal at the speed of light, however I don't think this is how communication was run between planets in Dune. So if the Guild were complicit, and didn't want the message to get out, they could have just isolated the Atreides until the battle was won.