Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

I'm not talking in terms of guerilla warfare, I'm talking in terms of pitched battles. If you want to wear down the occupiers until they leave, then trained warriors aren't as valuable, but Paul was waging a conventional war after the Battle of Arrakeen.

No, I don't think elderly and children would be used off-world. Women maybe.

Let's slow down here, Setzer's point is valid. There are trained fighters and then there are those who add to the deathtoll however they can. I'm sure their children were scary as shit, but it's not going to be anything at all compared to a proper Fremen warrior, especially after they'd been trained in the weirding way.

Just because their kids are 10 thousand times more likely to kill you than someone else's kid, that doesn't make them on the same level as the proper warriors.

You get Sardaukar entering a room full of Fremen children and they're going to slaughter those kids. Dangerous or not, kids are kids. You put some adults in that room, and it changes it completely.

As for the use of "combatants" here it could be argued either way, that's just semantics.

Remember the appendix in book 1? Where it describes how Kynes the elder first met the Fremen? Some Harkonnen troops had cornered Fremen kids. While the Fremen kids would have killed a few, and did, they would have been wiped out if Kynes hadn't saved them. The Fremen are merciless when dealing with enemies, and would have killed as many invaders as possible, but they're not all of equal value in a war.

"Unfortunately," the Emperor said, "I only sent in five troop carriers with
a light attack force to pick up prisoners for questioning. We barely got away
with three prisoners and one carrier. Mind you, Baron, my Sardaukar were almost
overwhelmed by a force composed mostly of women, children, and old men. This
child here was in command of one of the attacking groups."
"You see, Your Majesty!" the Baron said. "You see how they are!"
"I allowed myself to be captured," the child said. "I did not want to face
my brother and have to tell him that his son had been killed."
"Only a handful of our men got away," the Emperor said. "Got away! You hear
that?"
"We'd have had them, too," the child said, "except for the flames."
"My Sardaukar used the attitudinal jets on their carrier as flame-throwers,"
the Emperor said. "A move of desperation and the only thing that got them away
with their three prisoners. Mark that, my dear Baron: Sardaukar forced to
retreat in confusion from women and children and old men!"
~Dune

Alia was leading an ATTACKING group.

Freakzilla wrote:Alia was leading an ATTACKING group.

Paul crossed to the signalman's side. The Fedaykin stepped back, giving him
room. He looked down at what the man had written, read:
"Raid . . . on Sietch Tabr . . . captives . . . Alia (blank) families of
(blank) dead are . . . they (blank) son of Muad'Dib . . . "

That Sardaukar force was sent to raid one of the Sietches and grab prisoners. The groups Alia led were defending their homes, not launching an offensive. If someone invaded my home, and I grabbed a gun and shot them, that's an act of home defense. Sure I attack them, but that's empty semantic hairsplitting.

Yeah, we're getting deep into semantics bullshit land here people. As far as the dictonary says, they're combatants.

Note the difference - ALMOST overwhelmed. If that had been proper Fremen warriors they'd have been dead.

Add to that:

Instead of arguing over the definition of a word, let's focus on the actual argument.

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Yeah, we're getting deep into semantics bullshit land here people. As far as the dictonary says, they're combatants.

Note the difference - ALMOST overwhelmed. If that had been proper Fremen warriors they'd have been dead.

Still, being almost overwhelmed came as a complete shock.

Fremen women, children and old men were obviously better than the average Landsraad troopers.

Freakzilla wrote:

A Thing of Eternity wrote:Yeah, we're getting deep into semantics bullshit land here people. As far as the dictonary says, they're combatants.

Note the difference - ALMOST overwhelmed. If that had been proper Fremen warriors they'd have been dead.

Still, being almost overwhelmed came as a complete shock.

Fremen women, children and old men were obviously better than the average Landsraad troopers.

Oh yeah, I believe that for sure. The one thing we don't know is the numbers, but even with huge numbers the Sardaukar should have been able to cut through them like butter, and that obviously wasn't the case.

"A reasonable exchange," said the Fremen beside Hawat. "There must've been
three hundred men in that carrier. Now, we must see to their water and make
plans to get another aircraft." He started to step out of their rock-shadowed
concealment.

Assuming an average sietch community numbers about ten thousand people, the five carriers full of Sardaukar were outnumbered almost 7 to 1. If we assume each Sardaukar is worth about ten Landsraad conscripts, they should have been able to handle a House army ten times larger then the Sietch's population. However, we know how this turned out. One carrier got away, while the rest were overwhelmed, so the Sardaukar suffered about 80% casualties in what was supposed to be a quick in and out raid.

So, a Sardaukar force that should have been a match for 150,000 House troops was defeated by a mob of Fremen civilians numbering only ten thousand. Just imagine how that would have turned out if they were fighting Fremen warriors instead?

Setzer wrote:

"A reasonable exchange," said the Fremen beside Hawat. "There must've been
three hundred men in that carrier. Now, we must see to their water and make
plans to get another aircraft." He started to step out of their rock-shadowed
concealment.

Assuming an average sietch community numbers about ten thousand people, the five carriers full of Sardaukar were outnumbered almost 7 to 1. If we assume each Sardaukar is worth about ten Landsraad conscripts, they should have been able to handle a House army ten times larger then the Sietch's population. However, we know how this turned out. One carrier got away, while the rest were overwhelmed, so the Sardaukar suffered about 80% casualties in what was supposed to be a quick in and out raid.

So, a Sardaukar force that should have been a match for 150,000 House troops was defeated by a mob of Fremen civilians numbering only ten thousand. Just imagine how that would have turned out if they were fighting Fremen warriors instead?

If you've got your math right then yeah, Fremen were scary as all bloody hell.

If you've got your math right then yeah, Fremen were scary as all bloody hell.

Look at the planet they lived on, and the history of their people. Sardaukar were just people picked out to go live on a prison planet, and the emperor was at the head of a cult of personality. Paul's fremen were people who would consider me and you "water-rich", and we would consider them like someone who got out of a concentration camp after a short stay there, what with their water scarce bodies. Lean, mean, killing machines.

lukecash12 wrote:

If you've got your math right then yeah, Fremen were scary as all bloody hell.

Look at the planet they lived on, and the history of their people. Sardaukar were just people picked out to go live on a prison planet, and the emperor was at the head of a cult of personality. Paul's fremen were people who would consider me and you "water-rich", and we would consider them like someone who got out of a concentration camp after a short stay there, what with their water scarce bodies. Lean, mean, killing machines.

Yes, I think we've established all that. There's a little more to the Sardaukar than just prisoners though, that planet was a hell hole too and they were very seriously scary troops.

That's what I don't like about so many people who read Dune. They seem to have totally missed the point. Authors think that because the Fremen and the Sardaukar were trained in harsh environments, all you need to do to to create superior soldiers is visit abuse on people. "My troops have iron chains tied around them, then they're tossed naked into freezing cold Arctic waters! Any who don't make it to the surface drown, and the ones strong enough to swim to the shore are pounded with maces, and their balls are cut off, and shoved down their throats till they crap their balls out, then the Drill instructors make them eat their crapped out balls! All this makes them fearless and invincible soldiers!"

Setzer wrote: All this makes them fearless and invincible soldiers!"

Not castrated scatophilles, or did I miss your point?

The harsh environment was definitely a major factor, but the main thing was just necessity - they had to be stronger than most people just to survive - not abuse. FH seemed very fixated on the idea of harsh planets and what kinds of people might come out of them, we see it revisited in The Dosadi Experiement and the Pandora series.

Some other authors certainly don't grasp the subtleties involved, thats for sure though.

AToE "we see it revisited in The Dosadi Experiement and the Pandora series."

And of course later on in the Dune series itself.

inhuien wrote:AToE "we see it revisited in The Dosadi Experiement and the Pandora series."

And of course later on in the Dune series itself.

Well, yes, of course! I just wanted to point out that it's a topic FH was very fond of.

Unfortunately his son and the Hack are very fond of it too, I can't even count all the books those two have written on thhe subject.

inhuien wrote:

Setzer wrote: All this makes them fearless and invincible soldiers!"

Not castrated scatophilles, or did I miss your point?

Well, sure the Fremen and Sardaukar had harsh homes, but they also had rather comfortable standards of living. The Fremen Sietch was more comfy than life in the Graben villages. Hawat mentioned that even the lowliest Sardaukar lived like members of Great houses. It's not like they were subjected to constant torment to make them good soldiers.

Setzer wrote:Hawat mentioned that even the lowliest Sardaukar lived like members of Great houses. It's not like they were subjected to constant torment to make them good soldiers.

Actually, while I don't dissagree with you, that is the life of a Sardaukar, not one in training. I'll have to try and look it up later, but I'm pretty sure their lives were unpleasant to say the least before they finally became official soldiers.

And I definitely think the point FH was making was about the constant threat of danger, combined with a life in which just to survive required great discipline was what was making these people formidable. Definitely very different than mindless torment or anything like that.

Frank Herbert in 'The Dosadi Experiment' wrote:People who are never challenged never develop survival strengths!

(Italics Frank's)

SadisticCynic wrote:

Frank Herbert in 'The Dosadi Experiment' wrote:People who are never challenged never develop survival strengths!

(Italics Frank's)

That pretty much says it. Living on a harsh world in challenging, and that's what makes these people great. There's nothing nearly as challenging about just being abused.

lukecash12 wrote:Sardaukar were just people picked out to go live on a prison planet

Stupid oversimplification.