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Essay about Dune
Posted: 26 Jun 2008 23:30
by Phaedrus
http://www.azete.com/view/22568
I thought this essay was a refreshing and interesting look into four of the characters from the first three Dune novels. While the essay isn't
entirely accurate about Dune lore(possibly because it seems the writer hasn't finished reading the series), the writer is insightful and offers a different perspective on Paul, Alia, Ghanima, and Leto II than what we're used to around here.
Enjoy.
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 03:56
by Serkanner
Thank you for pointing this essay out. I have read it and agree it gives an extra look into the characters of Paul, Alia, Ghanima and the God-Emperor. Must read up a bit on Jung I am afraid
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 09:31
by KJA
Anyone else feel confused and need to take aspirin for a headache?
I think people who over analyze books like the gentlemen in the essay did are wannabe writers who can't hack it.
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 09:50
by orald
The final two Atreides one must examine in the first three books of the Dune Chronicles, Paul's twin children Leto II and Ghanima, present a unique problem for such a personality analysis. Much can be said about their individuality, as they both are faced with separate difficulties and provide different solutions to problems. When one looks at the way in which the twins talk to each other, however, one begins to realize that they are also remarkably alike in ability and thought, as well as genetics and background. They are inseparable, finish each other's sentences, and dress alike. Rather than examine them separately, then, in the case of personality and identity, one should recognize that they both face different directions, but do so from the same vantage point. Even Paul's prescience saw them as a single baby until they were born (Herbert, Messiah 308). One must, then, consider them as two different facets?male and female?of the same individual.
Well, I've never seen this line of thought before- could it be that he didn't just miss God Leto because of the presicent he would be, but actually saw them as one?
I'm taking a break from it now, only had 3.5 hours of sleep tonight.
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 10:54
by Dune Nerd
Thanks for posting that.
I enjoyed reading through an academic analysis of the books. There are pieces that I didn't agree with but overall it was a very interesting analysis.
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 11:30
by orald
I've only read until the bit I quoted, but I don't recall Alia having much, if any, prescient ability besides the aforementioned "future memo" she gave Paul in Dune.
IIRC, she's quite frustrated about it in CoD, and maybe in DN too, though I don't emember it well enough to know.
Posted: 27 Jun 2008 22:37
by Phaedrus
No, Alia had prescience, up until when the twins were born.
There's a scene in Dune Messiah where she almost ODs on spice essence, and Hayt finds her. There's also the scene where she has a vision in front of an audience at a religious ceremony.
There are also several references to her prescience in the narrative in DM.
Posted: 28 Jun 2008 04:20
by orald
But very, very limited in fashion, no? Something like Duncan's "vision" of the tigers sent after the twins in CoD.
I distinctly recall Alia bitching about her not being able to use prescience like Paul did, even when using lots and lots of spice.
Posted: 28 Jun 2008 13:03
by Phaedrus
orald wrote:But very, very limited in fashion, no? Something like Duncan's "vision" of the tigers sent after the twins in CoD.
I distinctly recall Alia bitching about her not being able to use prescience like Paul did, even when using lots and lots of spice.
She had that problem after the twins were born, and she had it during DM, when(I think, at least) she was blocked not only by the Tarot, but also by Paul.
But she saw some of the same things Paul did. Her prescience wasn't quite as powerful as his was, but she was up there.
Posted: 28 Jun 2008 21:14
by Freakzilla
Alia was plenty prescient, whe had a regular gig transforming the raw water and prophesizing from her fane.
However, she was having trouble seeing who the father of her yet-to-be conceived child was and this is why she repeatedly overdoses in DM. I believe the posible fathers were Hayt and Paul, who hidden by/were an oracle. Also, the Dune Tarot was clouding the future at the time.
Posted: 03 Jul 2008 12:01
by Tleilax Master B
Freakzilla wrote:Alia was plenty prescient, whe had a regular gig transforming the raw water and prophesizing from her fane.
However, she was having trouble seeing who the father of her yet-to-be conceived child was and this is why she repeatedly overdoses in DM. I believe the posible fathers were Hayt and Paul, who hidden by/were an oracle. Also, the Dune Tarot was clouding the future at the time.
But I also remember her being very frustrated by the fact that her visions were never as clear or powerful as Paul's, no? Wasn't that one of the reasons why she was close to overdosing, because she was having difficult getting clear prescient visions?
Posted: 03 Jul 2008 13:06
by Freakzilla
Tleilax Master B wrote:Freakzilla wrote:Alia was plenty prescient, whe had a regular gig transforming the raw water and prophesizing from her fane.
However, she was having trouble seeing who the father of her yet-to-be conceived child was and this is why she repeatedly overdoses in DM. I believe the posible fathers were Hayt and Paul, who hidden by/were an oracle. Also, the Dune Tarot was clouding the future at the time.
But I also remember her being very frustrated by the fact that her visions were never as clear or powerful as Paul's, no? Wasn't that one of the reasons why she was close to overdosing, because she was having difficult getting clear prescient visions?
There was also the Tarot to consider, too.
Posted: 03 Jul 2008 13:30
by Freakzilla
Freakzilla wrote:Tleilax Master B wrote:Freakzilla wrote:Alia was plenty prescient, whe had a regular gig transforming the raw water and prophesizing from her fane.
However, she was having trouble seeing who the father of her yet-to-be conceived child was and this is why she repeatedly overdoses in DM. I believe the posible fathers were Hayt and Paul, who hidden by/were an oracle. Also, the Dune Tarot was clouding the future at the time.
But I also remember her being very frustrated by the fact that her visions were never as clear or powerful as Paul's, no? Wasn't that one of the reasons why she was close to overdosing, because she was having difficult getting clear prescient visions?
There was also the Tarot to consider, too.
Also, being in close proximity to Paul probably didn't help much either.
Posted: 12 Jul 2008 11:54
by Seraphan
Since he was the Kwisatz Haderach and she wasnt it's normal that she didnt have the same prescient powers he had. In Dune there's that part after Jessica takes the water of life and Chani takes him away from the tau orgy he says "They have some of it" meaning that the fremen had small prescient abilities due to the spice but were too afraid of it.Also there's that other part were Paul has taken the water of life that you can check. So, being his sister, Alia has more prescient abilities than Fremen but far less than Paul.
Posted: 12 Jul 2008 15:32
by Phaedrus
I don't think so, at least, in the way you mean it. Alia saw many of the same visions as Paul.
The old Fremen tugged Paul's sleeve, nodded toward the exit. The crowd already was beginning to push in that direction. Paul allowed himself to be pressed along with them, the guide's hand upon his sleeve. There was the feeling in him then that his body had become the manifestation of some power he could no longer control. He had become a non-being, a stillness which moved itself. At the core of the non-being, there he existed, allowing himself to be led through the streets of his city, following a track so familiar to his visions that it froze his heart with grief,
I should know what Alia saw, he thought, I have seen it enough times myself. And she didn't cry out against it . . . she saw the alternatives, too.
However, Paul does have abilities that Alia doesn't have:
And she shuddered, knowing she saw the vision of her brother had seen. Unwanted tears burned her eyes. She shook her head sharply. No tears! They wasted moisture and, worse, distracted the harsh flow of vision. Paul must be stopped! Once, just once, she had bridged Time to place her voice where he would pass. But stress and mutability would not permit that here. The web of Time passed through her brother now like rays of light through a lens. He stood at the focus and he knew it. He had gathered all the lines to himself and would not permit them to escape or change.
"Why?" she muttered. "Is it hate? Does he strike out at Time itself because it hurt him? Is that it . . . hate?"