Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

In Children of Dune there is a passage that hints, or downright states that there are more populated planets than just those that make up the Empire, fringe worlds that deal in material and technology that skirts the border of what's forbidden...

Is this something post-Shaddam IV, or did the Empire never contain all the worlds on which humans had settled?

Secher Nbiw wrote:I Children of Dune there is a passage that hints, or downright states that there are more populated planets than just those that make up the Empire, fringe worlds that deal in material and technology that skirts the border of what's forbidden...

Is this something post-Shaddam IV, or did the Empire never contain all the worlds on which humans had settled?

Ix and Tleilax come to mind.

Freakzilla wrote: Ix and Tleilax come to mind.

It is stated in an explicit manner that it isn't Tleilax itself, it's a fringe world that deals in borderline forbidden Tleilax technology and products...

Didn't Ix and Tleilax fall under the Empire's banner? That's the impression that I always had. They weren't governed by a House, but they were still under Shaddam's rule.

Ix and Tleilax are kinda like company ruled planets that the Imperium dealt with in terms of business and product production. Since Ix is on the so called fringe it's a bit hard for the Imperium to control it, so they give them the green light to develop technologies and the rest of the empire takes it's share of it.
Thats the idea i always had anyway.

Secher Nbiw wrote:

Freakzilla wrote: Ix and Tleilax come to mind.

It is stated in an explicit manner that it isn't Tleilax itself, it's a fringe world that deals in borderline forbidden Tleilax technology and products...

Maybe I'm not thinking of the same passage as you but I thought Duncan was explicitly speaking of Tleilax.

Didn't Ix and Tleilax fall under the Empire's banner? That's the impression that I always had. They weren't governed by a House, but they were still under Shaddam's rule.

CHOAM. The Combine Honnete was much more than House Atreides, much more than
Dune, much more than the Priesthood or melange. It was inkvines, whale fur,
shigawire, Ixian artifacts and entertainers, trade in people and places, the
Hajj, those products which came from the borderline legality of Tleilaxu
technology; it was addictive drugs and medical techniques; it was transportation
(the Guild) and all of the supercomplex commerce of an empire which encompassed
thousands of known planets plus some which fed secretly at the fringes,
permitted there for services rendered. When Idaho said CHOAM, he spoke of a
constant ferment, intrigue within intrigue, a play of powers where the shift of
one duodecimal point in interest payments could change the ownership of an
entire planet.

...

Idaho shrugged. It was an unanswerable question. All of them suspected that
one day the Tleilaxu or technological tinkerers on the Imperial fringes would
nullify the Holtzmann Effect. On that day, shields would be useless. The whole
precarious balance which maintained planetary feudatories would collapse.

Duncan explains it a little better here:

Mentat fashion, he accepted this, turned to other facets of his problem. All
of the Atreides were on this one planet. Would House Corrino risk attack from
space? His mind flashed through the review of those conventions which had ended
primitive forms of warfare:
One -- All planets were vulnerable to attack from space; ergo: retaliation /
revenge facilities were set up off-planet by every House Major. Farad'n would
know that the Atreides had not omitted this elementary precaution.
Two -- Force shields were a complete defense against projectiles and
explosives of non-atomic type, the basic reason why hand-to-hand conflict had
reentered human combat. But infantry had its limits. House Corrino might have
brought their Sardaukar back to a pre-Arrakeen edge, but they still could be no
match for the abandoned ferocity of Fremen.
Three -- Planetary feudalism remained in constant danger from a large
technical class, but the effects of the Butlerian Jihad continued as a damper on
technological excesses. Ixians, Tleilaxu, and a few scattered outer planets were
the only possible threat in this regard, and they were planet-vulnerable to the
combined wrath of the rest of the Imperium. The Butlerian Jihad would not be
undone. Mechanized warfare required a large technical class. The Atreides
Imperium had channeled this force into other pursuits. No large technical class
existed unwatched. And the Empire remained safely feudalist, naturally, since
that was the best social form for spreading over widely dispersed wild frontiers
-- new planets.

Freakzilla wrote:

Secher Nbiw wrote:

Freakzilla wrote: Ix and Tleilax come to mind.

It is stated in an explicit manner that it isn't Tleilax itself, it's a fringe world that deals in borderline forbidden Tleilax technology and products...

Maybe I'm not thinking of the same passage as you but I thought Duncan was explicitly speaking of Tleilax.

Didn't Ix and Tleilax fall under the Empire's banner? That's the impression that I always had. They weren't governed by a House, but they were still under Shaddam's rule.

CHOAM. The Combine Honnete was much more than House Atreides, much more than
Dune, much more than the Priesthood or melange. It was inkvines, whale fur,
shigawire, Ixian artifacts and entertainers, trade in people and places, the
Hajj, those products which came from the borderline legality of Tleilaxu
technology; it was addictive drugs and medical techniques; it was transportation
(the Guild) and all of the supercomplex commerce of an empire which encompassed
thousands of known planets plus some which fed secretly at the fringes,
permitted there for services rendered. When Idaho said CHOAM, he spoke of a
constant ferment, intrigue within intrigue, a play of powers where the shift of
one duodecimal point in interest payments could change the ownership of an
entire planet.

...

Idaho shrugged. It was an unanswerable question. All of them suspected that
one day the Tleilaxu or technological tinkerers on the Imperial fringes would
nullify the Holtzmann Effect. On that day, shields would be useless. The whole
precarious balance which maintained planetary feudatories would collapse.

Duncan explains it a little better here:

Mentat fashion, he accepted this, turned to other facets of his problem. All
of the Atreides were on this one planet. Would House Corrino risk attack from
space? His mind flashed through the review of those conventions which had ended
primitive forms of warfare:
One -- All planets were vulnerable to attack from space; ergo: retaliation /
revenge facilities were set up off-planet by every House Major. Farad'n would
know that the Atreides had not omitted this elementary precaution.
Two -- Force shields were a complete defense against projectiles and
explosives of non-atomic type, the basic reason why hand-to-hand conflict had
reentered human combat. But infantry had its limits. House Corrino might have
brought their Sardaukar back to a pre-Arrakeen edge, but they still could be no
match for the abandoned ferocity of Fremen.
Three -- Planetary feudalism remained in constant danger from a large
technical class, but the effects of the Butlerian Jihad continued as a damper on
technological excesses. Ixians, Tleilaxu, and a few scattered outer planets were
the only possible threat in this regard, and they were planet-vulnerable to the
combined wrath of the rest of the Imperium. The Butlerian Jihad would not be
undone. Mechanized warfare required a large technical class. The Atreides
Imperium had channeled this force into other pursuits. No large technical class
existed unwatched. And the Empire remained safely feudalist, naturally, since
that was the best social form for spreading over widely dispersed wild frontiers
-- new planets.

i thought all those were references that Ix and the Tleilaxu wer skirting on the edge of what was acceptable in the Empire, and that the only planets not considered part of the Empire were uninhabited ones and those covered under the Tupile Treaty, the planets for renegade houses.

Imperial planets are ruled by the Great Houses of the Landsraad. Ix is a technocratic Confederacy and the Bene Tleilax are ruled by the Masters. They are tolerated for the services they provide and they must obey Imperial law in order to trade through the Guild.

They are subject to the Great Convention and Guild Peace but are not ruled by a Great House of the Landsraad.

So in short...

... not every planet populated by people is part of the Empire.
... There are still new planets being discovered and populated by people.
... Tleilax and Ix fall under the banner of the Empire, but not under the system of feudalism, and it's because of constant vigil, and the imposed limitations set by the Butlerian Jihad, that they pose no threat to the system and are tolerated. Within the system they enjoy a certain degree of freedom.

Correct?

Imperial planets are ruled by the Great Houses of the Landsraad. Ix is a technocratic Confederacy and the Bene Tleilax are ruled by the Masters. They are tolerated for the services they provide and they must obey Imperial law in order to trade through the Guild.

Not all Imperial planets are ruled by a Great House, there are also the Minor Houses, the difference between Great and Minor are with CHOAM and the Landsraad.

Is every planet ruled by a House? Are there planets, besides Ix and Tleilax, that are without a house?

Aren't Minor Houses just right below the Great Houses?
IIRC, Minor Houses only attends planetary issues only.

Secher Nbiw wrote:So in short...

... not every planet populated by people is part of the Empire.
... There are still new planets being discovered and populated by people.
... Tleilax and Ix fall under the banner of the Empire, but not under the system of feudalism, and it's because of constant vigil, and the imposed limitations set by the Butlerian Jihad, that they pose no threat to the system and are tolerated. Within the system they enjoy a certain degree of freedom.

Correct?

You got it.

Imperial planets are ruled by the Great Houses of the Landsraad. Ix is a technocratic Confederacy and the Bene Tleilax are ruled by the Masters. They are tolerated for the services they provide and they must obey Imperial law in order to trade through the Guild.

Not all Imperial planets are ruled by a Great House, there are also the Minor Houses, the difference between Great and Minor are with CHOAM and the Landsraad.

Is every planet ruled by a House? Are there planets, besides Ix and Tleilax, that are without a house?

Minor Houses are alligned under a Great House, like states in a country.

There are be other non-Landsraad planets like Ix and Tleilax but obviously they weren't worth mentioning by name.

Freakzilla wrote:There are be other non-Landsraad planets like Ix and Tleilax but obviously they weren't worth mentioning by name.

Sure they were mention-worthy! And I know just the two guys to do it too!

But a Minor House can rise to the position of a Great House, through, among other things, economic success.

Isn't it closer then to the situation in the Middle Ages? Think Machiavelli's the Prince, where you have the most favorable position being on of strength, surrounded by equals that are weaker.

They are all independant and autonomous, though they are allied to the stronger of the group.

They can grow and surpass the principality they depend on...

orald wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:There are be other non-Landsraad planets like Ix and Tleilax but obviously they weren't worth mentioning by name.

Sure they were mention-worthy! And I know just the two guys to do it too!

D'oh!

Secher Nbiw wrote:But a Minor House can rise to the position of a Great House, through, among other things, economic success.

Isn't it closer then to the situation in the Middle Ages? Think Machiavelli's the Prince, where you have the most favorable position being on of strength, surrounded by equals that are weaker.

They are all independant and autonomous, though they are allied to the stronger of the group.

They can grow and surpass the principality they depend on...

Isn't that how the Harkonnen clan got Great House status?

And I totally agree, an awful lot of the politicking going on in the Dune novels is very Machiavellian.

Secher Nbiw wrote:But a Minor House can rise to the position of a Great House, through, among other things, economic success.

Isn't it closer then to the situation in the Middle Ages? Think Machiavelli's the Prince, where you have the most favorable position being on of strength, surrounded by equals that are weaker.

They are all independant and autonomous, though they are allied to the stronger of the group.

They can grow and surpass the principality they depend on...

Yes, Minor Houses can rise to Great House status. In that case, they would be awarded the fief of a new, fringe planet by the Emperor, along with a title.

Great Houses can also be reduced to Minor House status.

Secher_Nbiw wrote:

Secher Nbiw wrote:But a Minor House can rise to the position of a Great House, through, among other things, economic success.

Isn't it closer then to the situation in the Middle Ages? Think Machiavelli's the Prince, where you have the most favorable position being on of strength, surrounded by equals that are weaker.

They are all independant and autonomous, though they are allied to the stronger of the group.

They can grow and surpass the principality they depend on...

Isn't that how the Harkonnen clan got Great House status?

And I totally agree, an awful lot of the politicking going on in the Dune novels is very Machiavellian.

Yes, House Harkonnen got it's title through CHOAM dealings. Traditionally, I believe a baron is the lowest rank among peers.

Yes, baron is the lowest, duke the highest.

Archduke is highest in some kingdoms/empires/fiefdoms

Well, yea, figures if you(read: those places that have it) make up an arch-duke than it's be higher, but(can't think of a clear way to say it) "naturally" duke is the highest...archduke is like later construct...ahh, but there's no real disagreement between us anyway.