Paul of Dune spoilers

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 06 Oct 2008 02:38

Ampoliros wrote:KJA

BZZZZZZT! Wrong!!!

(Come on, you read it already!

)

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 06 Oct 2008 11:40

I don't want to remember. You'll have to say "Golden Path" 5 times in front of a mirror at midnight with incense burning to unlock that memory.

here we go

Golden Path!
Golden Path!
Golden Path!
Golden Path!
Golden Path!

It was either when he fell in the river, or when Margot hurled her pearl necklace into the water bowl. You know, the poison one that doesn't get detected by poison snoopers. I don't have a copy in front of me and I had to return the one I borrowed in sell worthy condition. I should have argued that the crapiness of the book itself disputed that.

DuneFishUK · Post by **DuneFishUK** » 06 Oct 2008 14:17

Against my better judgement I kept going at POD this afternoon.

Byron was right - POD could be the best thing the duo have written. Although quite how that's a compliment or something to be proud about... I'm not quite sure. Mostly I'm finding it pretty un-offensive.. oh yeah, and un-interesting too.

The worst bit so far was the explanation of Irulan's role - a blatant fourth-wall moment. It comes soon after some token philosophical leader-ship stuff - blatantly cut-and-pasted DIRECTLY from FH's Dune Genesis/Intro to Eye, then suddenly a great big two-fingers-plus-raspberry to fans of FH's original novels - "We got it right, FH was wrong... and he intended it that way"

Essentially what the hacks are doing is ranking FH's original masterwork alongside the Dune Encyclopedia as an in-universe document with built in errors and inconstancies.

Strange... I never saw it that way.

[/rage]

The Sons of Idaho · Post by **The Sons of Idaho** » 06 Oct 2008 18:17

Something I came across yesterday -

In one of the first few chapters of the book, Paul recieves a message from Stilgar informing him of the victory on Kaitan. The message starts out "Usul, your forces were victorious, blah, blah, blah...".

Didn't seem strange at first, until I realized that this message was delivered VERBALLY by the messenger.

Not only did Stilgar forget the rules and use his SECRET sietch name outside the sietch, he gave it to an imperial messenger. He pretty much shouted it across the universe.

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 06 Oct 2008 18:24

Nice catch.

Have no fear, though: Comb-Over and Whatshisname will just toss logic out the window to retcon it in the next book.

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 06 Oct 2008 18:28

Ampoliros wrote:It was either when he fell in the river, or when Margot hurled

I missed Margot hurling. Rawph!

It was when he got blown into the nasty swamp water and emerged covered in leeches...and he YELLED LIKE A WOMAN!!! Then does the ginsu on them with his crysknife.

AH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

TSoI: Pshaw! Details, details! Ask Kevin: Details are for slow-poke writers like Frank Herbert. Nyah!

(Do we have enough evidence yet to burn DuneFishUK on a pyre of historians?)

DuneFishUK · Post by **DuneFishUK** » 07 Oct 2008 14:42

SandChigger wrote: Do we have enough evidence yet to burn DuneFishUK on a pyre of historians?)

It does sounds that way. But young Paul has healed me...

I left off yesterday right at the beginning of the first young Paul section. Up to that point - of course there were gripes (Leto's tomb, tall Piter, wrong fremen, etc etc well documented), but on the whole it was bearable escapist bollocks with a Dune flavour. AKA: about as good as you'd dare to expect.

The writing style was definitely improved since Hunters - they managed to mention the CET without spelling out what it was. That's gotta count for something. And you do hear the voice of FH copied and pasted from the intro to Eye - half-arsed but still welcome. Then came that big FUCK YOU in the Irulan chapter that effectively De-Canonised FH's Dune - and after that this book started to reek.

It's dreadful - Paul born on Kaitain you can just about argue, this - not a fakking chance. How this can be sold as a direct-accurate-based-on-notes sequel is beyond belief. What were they thinking? Then to make matters worse the duo's old writing style makes a triumphant return - how many times in a five minute chapter do we need to be reminded that Alia is an RM? I think I remember that from Dune, let alone fifteen seconds ago. I wish I could remember more, but it's all totally un-memorable and mind-numbingly predictable. This book adds nothing to Dune/Dune Messiah. It just rehashes things already said by FH.

[/rage]

Dare I continue tomorrow?...

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 07 Oct 2008 17:24

Its your Gom Jabbar. If you pull out now the Preeqs will kill you.

Tleszer · Post by **Tleszer** » 07 Oct 2008 17:46

Ampoliros wrote:Its your Gom Jabbar. If you pull out now the Honored Matres will kill you.

fixed

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 08 Oct 2008 03:02

Um...has this been brought up yet?

I'm fairly certain that Paul did NOT know he would have a son when Chani gives birth in Dune Messiah. He foresaw only one child, and that a daughter. (Correct? Freak?!)

FH in Dune Messiah wrote:Two children, Paul thought wonderingly. The vision had contained only a daughter. He cast himself adrift from Idaho's arm, moved toward the place where Harah had spoken, stumbled into a hard surface. His hands explored it: the metaglass outlines of a creche.

Why then this following?

Tweedle-Dim & Tweedle-Dum on p. 182 of Paul of Dune wrote:A second son would come, however. There would be another Leto, but that, too, carried heavy consequences—especially for Chani.

Obviously he suffers brain trauma and forgets that he knew this beforehand by the time of the actual events in DM.

Oh, OK, now I get it! Now I know what Jessica's DARK THANG is!

She gets pissed and captures Paul and gnawls on his head until she opens a small hole in his skull and then just happens to suck out the part of his brain containing the memory of this prescient revelation!

Phew...glad I figured that one out!

BOY OH BOY!!! THIS REALLY IS THE BEST THING THEY'VE WRITTEN YET!

Tleszer · Post by **Tleszer** » 08 Oct 2008 07:43

The only reasonably (though still stupid) explanation would be that Irulan hadn't started using the drugs on Chani so in the future that Paul saw in PoD this Leto would not have been prescient, or at least not until he tried to OD on spice. He would have gradually become prescient like Paul rather than have dreams right out of the box.

Granted this is still stupid but at least its an explanation...

Post by **Freakzilla** » 08 Oct 2008 08:31

SandChigger wrote:Um...has this been brought up yet?

I'm fairly certain that Paul did NOT know he would have a son when Chani gives birth in Dune Messiah. He foresaw only one child, and that a daughter. (Correct? Freak?!)

Absolutely. In fact, when he hears he's had twins is when his Vision starts to fail, which you quoted:

FH in Dune Messiah wrote:Two children, Paul thought wonderingly. The vision had contained only a daughter. He cast himself adrift from Idaho's arm, moved toward the place where Harah had spoken, stumbled into a hard surface. His hands explored it: the metaglass outlines of a creche.
Why then this following?

Tweedle-Dim & Tweedle-Dum on p. 182 of Paul of Dune wrote:A second son would come, however. There would be another Leto, but that, too, carried heavy consequences—especially for Chani.
Obviously he suffers brain trauma and forgets that he knew this beforehand by the time of the actual events in DM.

Oh, OK, now I get it! Now I know what Jessica's DARK THANG is!

She gets pissed and captures Paul and gnawls on his head until she opens a small hole in his skull and then just happens to suck out the part of his brain containing the memory of this prescient revelation!

Phew...glad I figured that one out!

BOY OH BOY!!! THIS REALLY IS THE BEST THING THEY'VE WRITTEN YET!

Dumbasses of Dune

Serkanner · Post by **Serkanner** » 08 Oct 2008 08:50

They will "explain" it with the statement that Paul hoped/knew he would have a son again and subsequently name him Leto and that hope is no part of his vision ...

Post by **Freakzilla** » 08 Oct 2008 08:55

I believe he promissed Chani there would be more sons after their first died, but I don't recall if that was from a Vision or if he was just trying to console a mother greiving for her dead son.

Secher_Nbiw · Post by **Secher_Nbiw** » 08 Oct 2008 09:51

Freakzilla wrote:I believe he promissed Chani there would be more sons after their first died, but I don't recall if that was from a Vision or if he was just trying to console a mother greiving for her dead son.

As I recall it, it was just one of those thing where he was trying to console Chani and himself, no vision mentioned. The only child he saw in Vision was Ghanima. IIRC.

A Thing of Eternity · Post by **A Thing of Eternity** » 08 Oct 2008 12:00

Good call Chig, that's a pretty blatent fuckup if I ever saw one. I don't think they can go the "he hoped" route as an excuse if Paul thinks about the "heavy consquences" for Chani. That who passage reads as obvious prescience.

Anyone who can still post at DN here? Nekhrun? If so please (pretty please!) get that up for Byron to delete and keep us updated on the off chance he decides to actually respond instead of delete.

DuneFishUK · Post by **DuneFishUK** » 08 Oct 2008 14:00

If it was dialogue they could have spun it, but it's not - it's an inner thought which implies a degree of prescience.. which of course couldn't be. Half of this book reads like it slipped through the editorial net.

---

I was mostly working at my desk today so managed to subject myself to SIX HOURS of this shit.

The main problem I'm finding isn't inconsistencies it's the uncounted "For-fucks-sake" moments when it's just boring and predictable. There is no big plot or interesting arc going on - it's just dull. Subplots hinted at by FH and stock Duniverse scenarios are rattled off ("high gear prose" ppl) and gleefully elaborated in the most straight-forward, un-interesting way possible. It's all painfully predictable - you don't need Paul's rubbish prescience to see where the next throwaway scenario is headed.

If I had to read this, rather than listen to it, I would have put it down a long time ago.

Re: Irulan - aka hack mouthpiece wrote:She takes grains of truth and builds them into deserts

How fucking true...

5 hours left.... can I really be arsed.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 08 Oct 2008 15:29

Baraka Bryan wrote:that chapter about how irulan made so many errors etc made me so mad last night i wanted to punch someone.

You need to get to a convention!

*DISCLAIMER*

The management does not endorse the use of violence.

Thank You

DuneFishUK · Post by **DuneFishUK** » 09 Oct 2008 14:28

Finished POD today. Pretty un-interesting really.

There are some RAGE-inducing moments, but ultimately, it's just a CRAP book. The sub-plots are un-developed and the main plots don't go anywhere. For example - the big Fenring arc, the only half decent storyline that builds up all through the book, turns out to be a plot to stab Paul. The whole book is just un-inspiring and half-baked.

Needless to say the book ends with Irulan hinting at further changes in the propaganda of Muad'dib.. it sounds like there's plenty more shit in the trough.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 09 Oct 2008 14:33

DuneFishUK wrote:Needless to say the book ends with Irulan hinting at further changes in the propaganda of Muad'dib.. it sounds like there's plenty more shit in the trough.

Well, they will always have to write a future book to fix the contradictions in the current one.

Tleszer · Post by **Tleszer** » 09 Oct 2008 18:00

Baraka Bryan wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:
DuneFishUK wrote:Needless to say the book ends with Irulan hinting at further changes in the propaganda of Muad'dib.. it sounds like there's plenty more shit in the trough.

Well, they will always have to write a future book to fix the contradictions in the current one.

when irulan was writing her first book, she was ignorant of some facts and made errors. but as she fleshed out those details in her second book, she was high on muad'dib piss and this book tells what REALLLY happened

High on Muad'Dib Piss? Maybe or maybe not, but its a train wreck we don't mind watching!

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 09 Oct 2008 19:46

DuneFishUK wrote:For example - the big Fenring arc, the only half decent storyline that builds up all through the book, turns out to be a plot to stab Paul. The whole book is just un-inspiring and half-baked.

All of which is needed ONLY to justify the Paolo ghola in Sadworms. Getting Paul's blood on that knife, and getting a new sword into Duncan's hands and having him use it first to "kill a Grumman for the Duke", aren't those the two main reasons for this piece of shit?

Providing justification/support for their own (in-universe chronologically) later silly creation in one (earlier published) book and correcting an ignorant mistake/change they made in another (even earlier) one.

At last we have the real answers to the question, "Why are they writing this shit again?"

inhuien · Post by **inhuien** » 10 Oct 2008 04:03

SandChigger wrote:"Why are they writing this shit again?"

You mean apart from it being a corrective editorial addition, they must be doing it for the love.

oh, YOU answered that already. oops

trang · Post by **trang** » 10 Oct 2008 07:36

finally finished the dam thing, took forever. and yes I have to agree it is nothing but a filler book for they're story arcs in the prequels.

The book spends over 2/3 of the time in pauls past during the House Atriedies prequel time frame. These events do nothing to exlpain his path from saviour/messiah to tyrant, nothing whatsoever.

The Jihad is just panned on about, with only half a handful of actual tellings out on planetary conquests. Only one deals with paul as he does the hidden in common routine amongst his troops. This is just complete nonsense, he wouldnt have done that he would have led from the front as he did against the emperor. As he faught battle after battle it would make more sense his demeanor changing, not the way they did it.

The storyarcs with shaddam and the fennrings is just a waste of paper and time, dont contribute anything to the story.

While the swordmasters werent flushed out much by frank, the story arc with swordmaster blood just goes against anything any one of them would do, it is pure trash. Bllood would have been more likely to just ask duncan to slay him in a duel or ask to pledge service anew to hid duke and then ask to be ordered to throw himself on his sword.

Not that its needed at all, but if you were to write a book about the jihad, you should write it about the jihad, not all the backstory crap, it doesnt do anything to enhance the current paul's postion or definition.

the thing that is just idiotic beyond measure is pinky and the brain's sadistic need to kill everyone in there books.The numbers of characters is staggering and it really is annoying.

I honestly think they are getting worse with every word they put on paper and should have some kind of court order put on them to stop writing altogether for the good of the literary world and fans.

Paul of Dune is one of the worst books I have ever read in my life, disconencted, sadistic, hollow nonsense. If I had a shield and a lasgun I would walk out into the desert nearest me, strap the shield around this tome of pain, walk out a safe distance aim in and obliterate it in the cleansing fires of a sudo-atomic explosion!!!!

Not much more I can say I guess,

Peace be with you all,
Godemperor save us,
and as Gurney says "if wish' were fish's, we'd all be throwing nets!"

Trang