Paul of Dune spoilers

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 10 Sep 2008 12:28

NEW SPOILY!!!

Marie Fenring kills the BT KH Thallo who is trying to kill the entire BT city of Thalidei (Am I the only one thinks of deformed babies when I read these names?

) in order to..."make a statement". No KH program can ever be perfect...therefore (I think) he wants to die because...of that.

Actually reading one page after another would help, I guess.

Anyway, Marie launches herself as a ballerina missile (you remember that famous BG attack technique) and pirouettes Thallo's neck into fragments.

OK, not really, but the imagery of her flying through the air with her feet pointed towards his neck made me think of a ballerina.

GAWD, this is such good SHIT! Byron was SO right.

Ghost · Post by **Ghost** » 10 Sep 2008 12:34

As a matter of fact, the first time i read the name Thallo i tought about phallos (greek for penis)

Ghost · Post by **Ghost** » 10 Sep 2008 13:48

Sandchigger:

There is an explication of how Marie get to be near or in the same room that the BT KH?

If there is some ''adversion'' or animosity against the women (specially a 14-16 year old child), how she can be near him? or for some reason the KH escaped?

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Sep 2008 14:07

Ghost wrote:Sandchigger:

There is an explication of how Marie get to be near or in the same room that the BT KH?

If there is some ''adversion'' or animosity against the women (specially a 14-16 year old child), how she can be near him? or for some reason the KH escaped?

I was wondering the same thing, how is it that Margot and Marie are on Tleilax? I don't even think the BT would allow the Count on Tleilax.

He's powindah.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 10 Sep 2008 14:51

At this point the Tleilaxu haven't embraced religion, that happens after Dune Messiah and the Bijaz, Scytale biznuss.

Or at least they shouldn't have.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Sep 2008 15:00

Ampoliros wrote:At this point the Tleilaxu haven't embraced religion, that happens after Dune Messiah and the Bijaz, Scytale biznuss.

Or at least they shouldn't have.

How do you know that? The Bene Tleilax aren't even mentioned in Dune.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 10 Sep 2008 15:23

Its in Dune Messiah, Bijaz tells Duncan to take a message to Paul that the Tleilaxu are going to <mumble> something closer look at/about religion now.

I'll look it up. Its somewhere in the back.

I swear!

Ghost · Post by **Ghost** » 10 Sep 2008 15:26

Well, if we go about the crapuniverse-of-the-prequels-sequels, IIRC women arent wellcome in the House books, mainly reading about the tleilaxu ocupation on Ix.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Sep 2008 15:30

Ampoliros wrote:Its in Dune Messiah, Bijaz tells Duncan to take a message to Paul that the Tleilaxu are going to <mumble> something closer look at/about religion now.

I'll look it up. Its somewhere in the back.

I swear!

"Tell him he must renounce his godhead and discredit The Qizarate. He must
discredit himself, his sister."
"Nothing more?" Hayt asked, sneering.
"He must relinquish his CHOAM holdings, naturally."
"Naturally."
"And if you're not yet close enough to strike, speak of how much the
Tleilaxu admire what he has taught them about the possibilities of religion.
Tell him the Tleilaxu have a department of religious engineering, shaping
religions to particular needs."
~Dune Messiah

The BT department of religious engineering was already in place at that time.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Sep 2008 15:31

According to Taraza in HoD, the BT rituals had been frozen in place for millenia. I think she meant more than the 1,500 years since Dune Messiah.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 10 Sep 2008 15:37

Okay I found it:

Dune Messiah pg.183-4, Bijaz uses hypnotic suggestion on Duncan wrote: "...speak of how much the Tleilaxu admire what he has taught them about the possibilities of religion. Tell him the Tleilaxu have a department of religious engineering, shaping religions to particular needs."
"How very clever," Hayt said.

That this is still a department of engineering, as well as the fact that Scytale is only a FD here and not a Master, suggests that the Tleilaxu are not yet the religious fanatics that they evolve into. The Ghola-immortality allows them to control the religion and set the leadership up as one-step below Leto II. Leto's transformation was the perfect tool for them to harness, his "immortality" allows the Tleilaxu Masters to appear to be one step below God with their own ghola-immortality.

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 10 Sep 2008 15:40

Freakzilla wrote:According to Taraza in HoD, the BT rituals had been frozen in place for millenia. I think she meant more than the 1,500 years since Dune Messiah.

You mean 5,000, right? Taraza is in Heretics. I think you might be forgetting to add in the small amount of time Leto II controlled the universe.

Ghost · Post by **Ghost** » 10 Sep 2008 15:42

But what about the revulsion against the women in House saga, they contradict themselves.

Even more, i don't think that they are comfortable with women that arent Axlotl Tanks being in their cities

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 10 Sep 2008 15:47

Ghost...[EDITED FOR DIPLOMATIC REASONS]...

Er, what I mean to say is...we're not including 'facts' from the other 'books'. Either way the inconsistency would still be there with the New 'writers' allowing powindah into Holy areas.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Sep 2008 15:53

Ampoliros wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:According to Taraza in HoD, the BT rituals had been frozen in place for millenia. I think she meant more than the 1,500 years since Dune Messiah.
You mean 5,000, right? Taraza is in Heretics. I think you might be forgetting to add in the small amount of time Leto II controlled the universe.

My bad.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Sep 2008 16:00

Ampoliros wrote:Okay I found it:

Dune Messiah pg.183-4, Bijaz uses hypnotic suggestion on Duncan wrote: "...speak of how much the Tleilaxu admire what he has taught them about the possibilities of religion. Tell him the Tleilaxu have a department of religious engineering, shaping religions to particular needs."
"How very clever," Hayt said.
That this is still a department of engineering, as well as the fact that Scytale is only a FD here and not a Master, suggests that the Tleilaxu are not yet the religious fanatics that they evolve into. The Ghola-immortality allows them to control the religion and set the leadership up as one-step below Leto II. Leto's transformation was the perfect tool for them to harness, his "immortality" allows the Tleilaxu Masters to appear to be one step below God with their own ghola-immortality.

Regardless, this was Scytale talking to Hayt, telling him what to say to Paul so he could get closer. It may not even been true.

Odrade has Other Memory of men telling women about Sufi-Zennsunni rituals, this would have had to have been before ghola ressurection technology:

Odrade summoned a liftfield and paused at the tubeslot. In Other Memory detail,
she found kehl and its right of ghufran familiar -- words whispered in the night
by lovers of long-dead women. "And then we . . ." "And so if we speak these
sacred words . . ." Ghufran! Acceptance and readmission of one who had
ventured among powindah, the returned one begging pardon for contact with
unimaginable sins of aliens. The Masheikh have met in kehl and felt the
presence of their God!
~Chapterhouse: Dune

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 10 Sep 2008 18:10

They explain something about Thalidorisdei being open to some powindah, unlike Bangadong, which is totally verboten.

Fenring and ShaZZAMN have a falling out and Fenring and Margot somehow make it to BT territory, where Fenring leverages some secret information he holds and blackmails the BT into letting them stay a few years.

(sigh)

Post by **Freakzilla** » 10 Sep 2008 18:31

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 10 Sep 2008 23:35

So ... many ... jokes.

Must ... avoid ... joke overload.

http://www.dunenovels.com/blog/page057.html

My God, where to start? The piss-yellow shirt? The thought of The Other Guy actually "editing"? Seriously, the jokes are practically writing themselves here ...

Hunchback Jack · Post by **Hunchback Jack** » 11 Sep 2008 02:53

For a second there, I thought we'd get a whole blog entry that was completely Dune related. But no ...

Edited to add: that shirt really pisses me off, incidentally. Not just the "direct sequel" quote on the front. Not just the colour. But the dates and venues on the back, like KJA is some kind of rock star on tour.

HBJ

Ampoliros · Post by **Ampoliros** » 11 Sep 2008 02:55

I'll put this back up in a couple days. If you want to see my minireview, PM me.

Hunchback Jack · Post by **Hunchback Jack** » 11 Sep 2008 03:04

Thanks for the mini-review. Sounds ... appalling.

Seriously, though, I'm amazed at how little I care about PoD. Even the "oh, god this is so bad" complaining aspect is not enough to get me within a mile of even considering the possibility of reading it.

I guess Sandworms was the last straw for me.

Happy to read more reviews tho

.

HBJ

SandChigger · Post by **SandChigger** » 11 Sep 2008 05:54

I did come across something last night about "The Priests of Dur" having attacked the guards at the shrine. Didn't read enough to find out why. Just the fact that there were Priest of Dur running about was enough to bounce me off to another chapter.

I read the Gurney/Enno(?) thing through, too. Didn't get quite the same vibe, but I'll have another look. SPOILER: Gurney ends up slitting the kid's throat later for disobeying a direct order not to kill the leader of a House/group(?) that resisted after they had surrendered. Seems the kid thought he knew the mind of Muad'Dib and what he wanted more than Gurney, and that such "understanding" overruled a direct order.

Tedious.

The scene where Alia taunts and then allows Korba to kill an envoy from Shaddam during Paul's absence was equally so, and trite to boot. I don't recognize any of these people.

There's a scene where Stilgar nearly drowns on some planet. Isn't that how they woke the memories of his ghola in Sadworms? It's all interlinked and related, you see.

There's an assassination attempt organized by Swordmaster/Residency Construction Superviser Bludd involving hundreds of hunter-seekers carrying poisons. The idea was to get Paul to allow them to attack him rather than the guests at whatever event is targeted, in hopes that he won't be able to counteract all of them at once.

Excuse me, but didn't hunter-seekers drill up your nerves and lobotomize you, or something more like that? I can't see ANY way even SUPER PAUL could defend himself against that.

LOTS and LOTS of silliness.

And I've just been sticking mostly to the Emperor sections so far, by the way. I did not enjoy the House books at all and am really not all that interested in reading their version of events before Dune. Especially since it's already clear that NONE of what they portray was probably even imagined by Frank Herbert.

Post by **Freakzilla** » 11 Sep 2008 06:45

SandChigger wrote:I did come across something last night about "The Priests of Dur" having attacked the guards at the shrine. Didn't read enough to find out why. Just the fact that there were Priest of Dur running about was enough to bounce me off to another chapter.

They traveled back through time and space from The Scattering.

Duh...

Hunchback Jack · Post by **Hunchback Jack** » 11 Sep 2008 12:44

They really don't seem to get that just because some things stay static over millenia, that doesn't mean that *everything* in the later books has to have some kernel in the earlier timeframe.

HBJ