Defense of the New Books

Hunchback Jack · Post by **Hunchback Jack** » 21 Oct 2008 16:29

My concern about the new books is really about the lack of respect the new authors are showing the original series and the original author. As a fan who deeply respects the original author - even though I never met him - I fell like these "official" extensions to his universe are equivalent to someone constantly insulting FH. As long as the insults continue, I'm not happy - even if I don't read the new books.

Why do I consider the new books to show a lack of respect? Let me count the ways:

* lack of writing quality
* shoddy plotting
* inadequate research into the original universe
* lack of complexity of character and theme
* lack of concern about FH's intentions.

This is not just a matter of "taste". If you're going to write in someone's universe, you have to try to live up to the goals and standards that the original author did. You may fail, but you should at least try. Being content to churn out Star-Wars-style space opera using the characters and ideas of a great epic, all for your personal gain, is *not* respectful.

Then there's the lack of respect in the authors' behaviour. Someone who respected Frank's work would approach the task of extending it with the utmost humility - no matter how good a writer they were. They would hold the fans approval in very high regard, and consider the integrity of the original novels as paramount.

No so these two. They dismiss out-of-hand the opinions of the fans who care most about maintaining the quality and integrity of the series. They give haughty and snide responses to simple questions of fact about events and characters from the originals. In their latest offering, they have the audacity to make statements which *deliberately undermine* the reliability of factual statements in the originals, just to cover their own asses.

It is clear to me that the authors' contributions have nothing to do with continuing Frank's work, nothing to do with the fans, and nothing to do with Dune - they have *everything* to do with the authors' own fame and wealth.

Sorry that was so long, but I really needed to communicate that, for me at least, this is not just a case of a couple of guys writing books that I don't like.

HBJ

SimonH · Post by **SimonH** » 21 Oct 2008 17:43

Tleilax Master B wrote:
Simon wrote:OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.

You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.

I of course think this is wrong.
I don't understand how you can say that Simon, preek or no preek. It has not only damaged the public perception, its actually introduced erroneous information into conversations about Dune. I know I've beat this horse to death, but I think its a good example. "Artificial spice"--no where in any of Frank's books does it indicate that Tleilaxu-made spice was "artificial" or "synthetic"--do a search, and you will see that Frank simply does not use those terms anywhere. Its actual melange they produce. Now, I have had countless conversations with people without a second thought (die-hard OHers mind you), use the term "artificial spice" referring to the Tleilaxu spice. I point this out to them and they immediately acknowledge they misspoke. But there is a reason they accidently use that term--because of the crap in the prequels that portrays BT spice as exactly that. This "amal" and "ajidimal" crap. Its infiltrated Dune conversations, even with people that know better. Its changed canon and had an effect on how people discuss different aspects of Dune. And there are other examples.

This doesn't bother you, because, if I understand you correctly, "joe six pack" doesn't care about these types of details. "joe six pack" wants to see people cut in half with lasguns. But the real people who buy these products, and keep these discussions alive, and add them into the curriculum of their literature classes, and write a thesis on them, etc are these "scholars" of yours. Your so-called "scholars" don't like whats happening to Frank's Dune. And I for one can't see any reason why we should sit around on our hands and do nothing about it. I'm not just a Dune scholar; I'm a critic and a consumer. And this "product" is a rip-off and other consumers deserve to know about it.....thus all the "negativity"

I'd like to add to this - a guy from my work likes Dune. He listens to the NuDune books as audio books. He is not really interested in who writes them. His comments to me (when he saw something Dune related on my computer) was along the lines of: Dune has really gone down hill. It is all action and no substance. The latest book was easily forgettable.. Not "The books by the new authors don't match up to those by FH". Dune has gone downhill.

This is the type of damage that I was arguing from day one on DN.

DuneFishUK · Post by **DuneFishUK** » 21 Oct 2008 17:55

Surely the HLP should be able to see where their franchise is strongest - Dune is the SF book that Non-SF fans read anyway. It is loved and respected for a wide variety of reasons by fans who enjoy that sort of thing.

The new books represent an entirely different genre. There is a place for pulpy escapist nonsense.. but to base pulpy nonsense on a highly respected and loved franchise that is respected and loved because it is NOT pulpy nonsense. I never got that.

What did they think the response would be?

Oh wait... Sorry ... I remember posting something nearly word-for-word like this on The Landsraad back while I was still at school 5-6 years ago.

Frybread · Post by **Frybread** » 21 Oct 2008 18:02

DuneFishUK wrote:Surely the HLP should be able to see where their franchise is strongest - Dune is the SF book that Non-SF fans read anyway. It is loved and respected for a wide variety of reasons by fans who enjoy that sort of thing.

The new books represent an entirely different genre. There is a place for pulpy escapist nonsense.. but to base pulpy nonsense on a highly respected and loved franchise that is respected and loved because it is NOT pulpy nonsense. I never got that.

What did they think the response would be?

Oh wait... Sorry ... I remember posting something nearly word-for-word like this on The Landsraad back while I was still at school 5-6 years ago.

I'm sure the Hiking Hack figured he was so awesome that longtime and hardcore Dune fans would swallow the young adult, assembly-line junk he planned to produce.

Edited to add that if OHers did not approve of the new stuff (which happened), then Kevin probably figured that his crap would sell enough to the lowest common denominator to make the HLP keep him around (which also, has happened).

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 21 Oct 2008 19:37

DuneFishUK wrote:Dune is the SF book that Non-SF fans read anyway. It is loved and respected for a wide variety of reasons by fans who enjoy that sort of thing.

Exactly. I don't read science-fiction today - did when I was kid, don't now.
I'll occasionally enjoy an SF movie - Gattaca comes to mind.
Got a kick out of The Fifth Element on DVD recently.

Same thing with JRR Tolkien, too - still re-read some of his work now & then,
but would never consider reading other sword & sorcery type novels.

Good point, Fish, and one I've talked about for a long time:
You may not like SciFi, but this is much more than that ...

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 21:54

Wow, six pages before I even heard of this lovely new topic.

I'm not sure I even care to partake. My defense of the new stuff is not point based. I've never disagreed with the fact that there are errors in continuity.
On all fronts, FH through BH and KJA. It just didn't ruin the story for me, I choose to overlook them. Because, for me, Dune is about my entertainment first and foremost.

I'm sorry if my "life is a salad bar, take what you want and leave the rest" mentality offends some of you. That's me. I'll apologize when I'm wrong but I won't apologize for being myself.

I've actually been thinking I should stop posting here. Take my own good advice about not wasting the time complaining about things that can't be changed. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change",and all of that. I really think you guys are missing out but if the new books aren't your thing, OK.

I have no interest in doing a bullet point presentation of my defense of the new books. I can tell you what I like about them, even tell you what I didn't, but my defense isn't a "the worm in one book measured in at yay so much, while the worm in this book measured it at this much." That just isn't how my mind works.

All that said, I'm off to page 1 of this thread to try and answer whatever points I can.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 22:02

Serkanner wrote:
Simon wrote: the fact that there are more satisfied Dune fans than disgruntled ones. That is "my point" dear Duke.

Fact? In what way have you established that as a fact? You compare online activities with a booksigning attandance. Dear God. Compare the activities between two "fan-sites" ... Dumbnovels and Jacurutu ... which of the two is more active?

The dissatisfied are always more vocal. When you eat fast food and it's good you might say "hey this stuff is really fresh today!" but who turns their car around, or calls up the local Burger King to say "Fantastic job guys!". No one.

But if you get cold fries or a stale bun your going to complain. I myself read the books for 7 or 8 years without feeling the need to go online or write letters to the authors.

SimonH · Post by **SimonH** » 21 Oct 2008 22:10

Simon wrote:Wow, six pages before I even heard of this lovely new topic.

I'm not sure I even care to partake. My defense of the new stuff is not point based. I've never disagreed with the fact that there are errors in continuity.
On all fronts, FH through BH and KJA. It just didn't ruin the story for me, I choose to overlook them. Because, for me, Dune is about my entertainment first and foremost.

I'm sorry if my "life is a salad bar, take what you want and leave the rest" mentality offends some of you. That's me. I'll apologize when I'm wrong but I won't apologize for being myself.

I've actually been thinking I should stop posting here. Take my own good advice about not wasting the time complaining about things that can't be changed. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change",and all of that. I really think you guys are missing out but if the new books aren't your thing, OK.

I have no interest in doing a bullet point presentation of my defense of the new books. I can tell you what I like about them, even tell you what I didn't, but my defense isn't a "the worm in one book measured in at yay so much, while the worm in this book measured it at this much." That just isn't how my mind works.

All that said, I'm off to page 1 of this thread to try and answer whatever points I can.

Right now, i'd be most interested in what you have to say about Paul's incomplete, non-literal visions in PoD or the fact that he foresaw Leto's birth in PoD.

As clearly stated by others on this site, Paul's visions of all possible futures were so clear that he could pilot a 'thopter blind.

Paul was so surprised by Leto at his birth that he collapsed.

Both of these inconsistencies are huge and show that the authors of PoD do not care to re-read the original Dune books and by not caring, pissing people off who do re-read and care about the original books.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 22:11

Freakzilla wrote:
Simon wrote:
Freakzilla wrote:I just don't like the name calling. Surely y'all can discuss your differences without being so childish.
Who's being childish? "Not I" said the fly.

I don't get what my short comings as a speller have to do with Dune. Bad grammer is the hallmark of the internet, who am I to break tradition?

I'll keep spelling badly. The Duke over here will continue to be a jerk.
And none of this will change the fact that there are more satisfied Dune fans than disgruntled ones. That is "my point" dear Duke.

Uhhhhh I feel very trollish suddenly. Listen, I don't want to be a dick here, I'm just human. I don't see a need for the wild negativity is all.

OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.

You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.

I of course think this is wrong. First of all there are many different types of Dune fans. Scholarly ones such as some of you, and the average joe, or "joe six-pack" as Ron puts it. Dune's popularity is based on it's many levels, it has basic adventure elements for the joe and the depth (religion, politics, economics, etc) for the scholar. The suggestion that there is only one way to enjoy Dune, or a proper way is idiotic. That's like saying there is only one way to see or interpret a painting.

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.

I'm not here to try and "win", or whatever. I just want you guys to know that just because I'm not "your" type of Dune fanatic I am one never the less, and that no matter how many mean things you want to say or do I'm not going stop being a big fan of the series.
I think OUR point is the people who enjoy Dune in, at least, a scholarly way think the new books "suck soiled ass". We don't care if action fans like them, what about us? They are not writting Dune books for us and don't care about our opinion and by extension FH's legacy. They should give a real author a chance.

I actually agree with you a bit here, while I don't feel like "they should never write another Dune book again", I would like to see various authors get a crack at the Duniverse, it'd be interesting to see what they could do with it. Also I don't feel like every Dune book should need to be a direct part of the "big story", I'd like to see "Tales from the Duniverse" or something like that, novels based in certain eras, novels that needn't infringe on the main story. Sort of like the Star Wars EU.

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 21 Oct 2008 22:12

Simon wrote:The dissatisfied are always more vocal. When you eat fast food and it's good you might say "hey this stuff is really fresh today!" but who turns their car around, or calls up the local Burger King to say "Fantastic job guys!". No one.

But if you get cold fries or a stale bun your going to complain. I myself read the books for 7 or 8 years without feeling the need to go online or write letters to the authors.

Um ... huh?

Seriously, what in the hell are you talking about?

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 21 Oct 2008 22:21

Edited:

I wouldn't want to be mean or anything.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 22:27

SandRider wrote:
Son, I just don't think you're mentally equipped to
play over here like you're trying to.
And for the love of god, change your avatar.
Have you ever had some pussy, Son ?
Drawing fanfic comics is okay, I guess.
Well, no not really, but how old are you ?
If you've read all these posts over here and
seen the way the DN forum & the HLP is run,
and STILL don't get it.....

fuck. my left eye just went blind ....

Did you drop "son" enough?

As to the Dune related bit at the end of your childish rant, run how? Like it was a site made for the positive promotion of all things Dune? Guess what? IT IS. Deal with it. (By the way, my little brother thinks the world is measured by tail nailed, he's a teenager. So if you want to tout your age try not sounding like a boy).

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 22:34

SandChigger wrote:
Simon wrote:What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.
Um...I think most of us can see that...if you're talking about Frank's books.

If, however, you're trying to include ANY of the new books in there as "great art", well...sorry, but that's bullshit. Those books appeal to a very limited set of readers...which I won't qualify in any way since I'm playing nice.

And you're going to have to cite some sort of survey or other data source if you want anyone to believe that most Dune fans are satisfied with the new books. (Sales figures don't get it.)

(Btw, I'm assuming that you're referring to me when you write "Ron" here and not Byron's father or someone else named Ron. You chose to use your real name and that's fine. I choose not to. Not that I'm trying to hide my identity or anything, but I'd prefer if you'd use my user name or "Chig" or something like that. "Ass-puckered Monkey Flea" is not an option, of course. )

SandRider wrote:fuck. my left eye just went blind ....
Sugary sweetness got to be too much for it, huh?

That's fine Chig, wasn't trying to offend, I only used it because like you say, it isn't a secret or anything.

And yes, I was talking about FH, I like the new books quite a bit (in case you couldn't tell

) but they just don't quite cut it as "high art".

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 21 Oct 2008 22:38

Simon, if you really are going point-by-point, give me a second to get a snack ...

Ah, better!

Free entertainment; you just can't beat it. Go, Simon, go! Show us the error of our ways.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 22:41

SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote: ...

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.
...

please don't call that shit art. look at the incredible list of contradictions that have come out of the last book alone. It is embarrising surely.

I can't believe what tossers the hacks are. They could be so much more open and respectful. They have created the hate that is regularly output on this site. An admission of error would have gone a long way and they would have lost less face than they do when they have to spend chapters explaining inconsistancies from their previous books.

Have they claimed their books are faultless? I've never seen that quote, link me please sir. I seem to remember KJA admitting that there were continuity errors in a quote I'd read...

SimonH · Post by **SimonH** » 21 Oct 2008 22:42

Simon wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote: ...

What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.
...

please don't call that shit art. look at the incredible list of contradictions that have come out of the last book alone. It is embarrising surely.

I can't believe what tossers the hacks are. They could be so much more open and respectful. They have created the hate that is regularly output on this site. An admission of error would have gone a long way and they would have lost less face than they do when they have to spend chapters explaining inconsistancies from their previous books.
Have they claimed their books are faultless? I've never seen that quote, link me please sir. I seem to remember KJA admitting that there were continuity errors in a quote I'd read...

http://www.dunenovels.com/FAQ.html

all of these are bullshit. they are all mistakes. why can't they admit it? I'd give them more respect if they did

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 21 Oct 2008 22:45

Simon wrote:Have they claimed their books are faultless?

Pretty much. They call it a FAQ:

http://www.dunenovels.com/FAQ.html

TheDukester · Post by **TheDukester** » 21 Oct 2008 22:46

Damnit! Beaten to the punch! Well-played, SimonH.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 23:41

Lundse wrote:
Simon wrote:OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.
It is the conclusion, but I think you got it right.

Simon wrote:You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.
Yes. And Arnoldo, Byron and other have already proven that point, by being unable to read simple phrases like 'the vision had shown only a daughter' to mean that Paul knew Leto II would be born - obviously they got that idea from a KJA novel and not Herberts writing.
So people are being influenced.

The disrespect towards Frank by reducing his universe to some second-rate Star Trek action-packing young-adult frame for silliness is another important point.

Well clearly expansion of the Dune franchise is the aim. Why make new books, or a movie if the goal was anything else? I don't think such things are aimed at purist. They aren't any worse than George Lucas, there was a demand and they (the HLP) decided to answer it, much like the new Star Wars the response was mixed. That's life. Can't please all of the people all of the time.

Simon wrote:I of course think this is wrong. First of all there are many different types of Dune fans. Scholarly ones such as some of you, and the average joe, or "joe six-pack" as Ron puts it. Dune's popularity is based on it's many levels, it has basic adventure elements for the joe and the depth (religion, politics, economics, etc) for the scholar.

Lundse wrote: Dune was only action packed (in places) to get you thinking along the lines of a hero-myth, to make Paul the quintessential hero while exploding the entire idea of heroes.
Including action and evil AIs is not doing homage to Dune, continuing eg. the theme of heroes vs. society would be. They chose to go against everything Frank was trying to say instead (Norma as Deux ex Machina, Duncan being the ruler as a good thing, etc.)

The whole Dune7 incident is something I hate to debate. I went with it, I enjoyed it, but I knew it wasn't at all what FH would have done. Your points about the hero myth theme ring true. Heroes being a bad thing was the point. Duncan taking the reins as "supreme being" was out there.
But at the same time I feel like nothing could have lived up to the expectations. I think everyone had their own idea of where it would go. It was a monster task, and while perhaps it wasn't successful, kudos to them for trying, flak was inevitable.

Simon wrote:The suggestion that there is only one way to enjoy Dune, or a proper way is idiotic. That's like saying there is only one way to see or interpret a painting.

Lundse wrote: Noone is saying that. We are saying the novel contains certain elements which are incompatible with a young-adult action novel style and a whole lot of the stuff KJA put in there.
It is quite easy to see what themes and thoughts Frank put into Dune, noone has been able to tell me what KJA is doing except action-scenes and bad characterizations.
We are not saying you cannot enjoy Dune as an action novel with weird ideas - feel free! But you cannot say that because KJA's work is also an action novel, it is on par with Dune - that is ignoring all our ways of reading Dune!

Actually someone did, Chig. When I expressed my honest enthusiasm to sit down and actually talk Dune with Chig (listen to his insight on classic Dune would be more appropriate

) on account of his saying he'd be in the area, he starts crowing like lying about being in Dayton was some sort of success. Then he said that everyone at the signing weren't real Dune fans. That just sounded very elitist to me. It came off as "if your taste aren't as refined as mine then your opinion is irrelevant". That sort of thinking is just wrong in my opinion, closed minded. Just because I disagree with most of you doesn't mean your thoughts are valueless.

And no, the new books are not on the same level as the classics, one needs only read them to see this and since we've all read them it sort of goes without saying. I just don't think they are as bad as you guys make out.

Simon wrote:What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.

Lundse wrote: No, that is not what makes great art at all. Great art says something, tells a story, handles themes without making one explicit point. Great art inspires. Great art tells us something about being human.
Broad appeal does not enter into it at all - or is American Idol great art too?

I was referring to FH's works with my use of "great". Like I said, the new books are very good (to me at least) but to call them high art would be a stretch.

Simon wrote:I'm not here to try and "win", or whatever. I just want you guys to know that just because I'm not "your" type of Dune fanatic I am one never the less, and that no matter how many mean things you want to say or do I'm not going stop being a big fan of the series.

Lundse wrote: Feel free. But until you are willing to show us how KJA's silliness is possibly consistent with Frank's books, please do not ask us to take your claims that they can even be conceived of as canon serious.

Yet again, not defending the inconsistencies, they are there in print, in thousands of printed volumes. I'm just saying they don't bother me the way they do you guys.

And as for "cannon": Never said they were. In fact (and I wish I knew which thread on DN I wrote it) I have maintained that the only cannon are FH's volumes. I consider any non-FH Dune novel to be expanded Duniverse fare.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 21 Oct 2008 23:43

Freakzilla wrote:I've split this topic from the Member Gallery.

Simon, if you object to the title, let me know and I will change it.

The title is fine Freak, thanks.

SandRider · Post by **SandRider** » 22 Oct 2008 00:03

Still haven't changed that avatar, Son ?
Well, that's all right, some girls like weasel faced guys, I'm sure you'll find one someday. Or pay for one someday. When your X-box is broken and your crayons snap.

Hey, saw you got your ASS handed to you over on DN.
Guess you know less about JRR Tolkien than you do about Frank Herbert, huh ?

You know, I said before I just didn't think you had the mental capacity to play over here. Now I'm thinking you don't have the mental capacity to play over there.

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 00:18

Tleilax Master B wrote:
Simon wrote:OK, BH and KJA are destroying FH's legacy- this is the base of the arguement.

You claim it is altering the public perception of Frank's classic works.

I of course think this is wrong.
I don't understand how you can say that Simon, preek or no preek. It has not only damaged the public perception, its actually introduced erroneous information into conversations about Dune. I know I've beat this horse to death, but I think its a good example. "Artificial spice"--no where in any of Frank's books does it indicate that Tleilaxu-made spice was "artificial" or "synthetic"--do a search, and you will see that Frank simply does not use those terms anywhere. Its actual melange they produce. Now, I have had countless conversations with people without a second thought (die-hard OHers mind you), use the term "artificial spice" referring to the Tleilaxu spice. I point this out to them and they immediately acknowledge they misspoke. But there is a reason they accidently use that term--because of the crap in the prequels that portrays BT spice as exactly that. This "amal" and "ajidimal" crap. Its infiltrated Dune conversations, even with people that know better. Its changed canon and had an effect on how people discuss different aspects of Dune. And there are other examples.

This doesn't bother you, because, if I understand you correctly, "joe six pack" doesn't care about these types of details. "joe six pack" wants to see people cut in half with lasguns. But the real people who buy these products, and keep these discussions alive, and add them into the curriculum of their literature classes, and write a thesis on them, etc are these "scholars" of yours. Your so-called "scholars" don't like whats happening to Frank's Dune. And I for one can't see any reason why we should sit around on our hands and do nothing about it. I'm not just a Dune scholar; I'm a critic and a consumer. And this "product" is a rip-off and other consumers deserve to know about it.....thus all the "negativity"

In a way your right, the joe six packs will not notice the errors and scholarly reader will just ignore the new books, or so I'd have thought.
Seems to me from what I've read and experienced trying to introduce friends and family to Dune, it can be confusing either way. My figuring is that the joes and passive folk (passive being the casual fan) will enjoy and the scholars are bright enough to see Frank's messages. Not a perfect solution I admit (perfect would be FH alive and writting) but it is what it is.

In regards to you guys sitting on your hands, at times I really wish you guys would just ignore the new stuff, but at the same time I'm also the type of person who believes that if something really bothers you that you should do something about it. Catch 22 for me, I love your enthusiasm but hate what it's focused on. Again, different folks different strokes, I doubt I would even be on here as much if it were a "Dune-love in", I'd have probably posted a few "Dune rocks!" style post and left it at that. But since my "silent majority" was being to quiet, I feel the need to represent.

Lundse · Post by **Lundse** » 22 Oct 2008 00:37

Simon wrote:
Lundse wrote:Yes. And Arnoldo, Byron and other have already proven that point, by being unable to read simple phrases like 'the vision had shown only a daughter' to mean that Paul knew Leto II would be born - obviously they got that idea from a KJA novel and not Herberts writing.
So people are being influenced.

The disrespect towards Frank by reducing his universe to some second-rate Star Trek action-packing young-adult frame for silliness is another important point.
Well clearly expansion of the Dune franchise is the aim. Why make new books, or a movie if the goal was anything else? I don't think such things are aimed at purist. They aren't any worse than George Lucas, there was a demand and they (the HLP) decided to answer it, much like the new Star Wars the response was mixed. That's life. Can't please all of the people all of the time.

'Expansion being the aim' does not excuse anything. I was talking about the HUGE changes to the plotline (evil machine overlords, changes in Paul's visions, change of basic message, change to pulp-action style, etc, etc). Saying that 'more Dune was the goal' does not impact on the new stuff being bad at all - this is a non-answer to my point.

Simon wrote:
Simon wrote:I of course think this is wrong. First of all there are many different types of Dune fans. Scholarly ones such as some of you, and the average joe, or "joe six-pack" as Ron puts it. Dune's popularity is based on it's many levels, it has basic adventure elements for the joe and the depth (religion, politics, economics, etc) for the scholar.

Lundse wrote:Dune was only action packed (in places) to get you thinking along the lines of a hero-myth, to make Paul the quintessential hero while exploding the entire idea of heroes.
Including action and evil AIs is not doing homage to Dune, continuing eg. the theme of heroes vs. society would be. They chose to go against everything Frank was trying to say instead (Norma as Deux ex Machina, Duncan being the ruler as a good thing, etc.)
The whole Dune7 incident is something I hate to debate. I went with it, I enjoyed it, but I knew it wasn't at all what FH would have done. Your points about the hero myth theme ring true. Heroes being a bad thing was the point. Duncan taking the reins as "supreme being" was out there.
But at the same time I feel like nothing could have lived up to the expectations. I think everyone had their own idea of where it would go. It was a monster task, and while perhaps it wasn't successful, kudos to them for trying, flak was inevitable.

I am glad you see the hero myth problem clearly. I do not believe, however, that it washes of with 'flak was inevitable'. We certainly agree that criticism would abound no matter who had written the stuff and how well - but this does not mean all such critique is equal and can be dismissed with reference to that fact!
An attempt to follow Frank's themes, no matter how bad, would be better than directly contradicting him on Leto II's plan and the need for heroes. The same goes for the Butlerian Jihad, which was clearly about humanity getting rid of something which was making their decisions for them - molding it into a Skynet scenarion to have your action and torturing robots is not 'a matter of taste'; it is choosing to rewrite Frank's statements, his points and using his universe for something entirely different than what he wanted with it.

This is disrespectful and an insult. That the books are popular have nothing to do with this - if a NuDune fan could argue how this was not disrespectful or tell us how this inconsistencies are non-existent or irrelevant, that would be a another matter.

Simon wrote:
Simon wrote:The suggestion that there is only one way to enjoy Dune, or a proper way is idiotic. That's like saying there is only one way to see or interpret a painting.

Lundse wrote:Noone is saying that. We are saying the novel contains certain elements which are incompatible with a young-adult action novel style and a whole lot of the stuff KJA put in there.
It is quite easy to see what themes and thoughts Frank put into Dune, noone has been able to tell me what KJA is doing except action-scenes and bad characterizations.
We are not saying you cannot enjoy Dune as an action novel with weird ideas - feel free! But you cannot say that because KJA's work is also an action novel, it is on par with Dune - that is ignoring all our ways of reading Dune!
Actually someone did, Chig. When I expressed my honest enthusiasm to sit down and actually talk Dune with Chig (listen to his insight on classic Dune would be more appropriate ) on account of his saying he'd be in the area, he starts crowing like lying about being in Dayton was some sort of success. Then he said that everyone at the signing weren't real Dune fans. That just sounded very elitist to me. It came off as "if your taste aren't as refined as mine then your opinion is irrelevant". That sort of thinking is just wrong in my opinion, closed minded. Just because I disagree with most of you doesn't mean your thoughts are valueless.

And no, the new books are not on the same level as the classics, one needs only read them to see this and since we've all read them it sort of goes without saying. I just don't think they are as bad as you guys make out.

If that is true, then I do not speak for Chig. Or he misspoke, or you misinterpreted.
I do agree, though, that a Dune fan who reads only for the action and wild ideas is not the same kind of fan who enjoys the ecological, philosophical, etc. debates within Dune. I have not heard of one person who liked Dune for it's statements about humanity, analysis of the hero-myth or similar who liked the new books (and did not, in fact, find them insults to FH).

Of course you are allowed to like action novels (I think Chig would agree too). But ask yourself this: are the NuDune novels getting something out of being set in the Dune universe or is the Dune universe getting something out of the NuDune novels?
We are pissed at the fact that these books are set in the Dune universe - if they had been seperately published in a new fictional setting, noone here would care. But by deliberately setting themselves up to continue Frank's work, they have asked to be held to high standards. More importantly, they are being held to (objective) standards of respecting the universe in which they are writing - they are not even trying to do this, and are in fact pissing on Frank's ideas continually.

Simon wrote:
Simon wrote:What makes great art "great" is it's broad appeal to all different types of people. If you guys can't see this then I don't know what to say.

Lundse wrote:No, that is not what makes great art at all. Great art says something, tells a story, handles themes without making one explicit point. Great art inspires. Great art tells us something about being human.
Broad appeal does not enter into it at all - or is American Idol great art too?
I was referring to FH's works with my use of "great". Like I said, the new books are very good (to me at least) but to call them high art would be a stretch.

What was your point then?

Simon wrote:
Simon wrote:I'm not here to try and "win", or whatever. I just want you guys to know that just because I'm not "your" type of Dune fanatic I am one never the less, and that no matter how many mean things you want to say or do I'm not going stop being a big fan of the series.

Lundse wrote:Feel free. But until you are willing to show us how KJA's silliness is possibly consistent with Frank's books, please do not ask us to take your claims that they can even be conceived of as canon serious.
Yet again, not defending the inconsistencies, they are there in print, in thousands of printed volumes. I'm just saying they don't bother me the way they do you guys.

And as for "cannon": Never said they were. In fact (and I wish I knew which thread on DN I wrote it) I have maintained that the only cannon are FH's volumes. I consider any non-FH Dune novel to be expanded Duniverse fare.

Great. Then we only have a few steps to go.

Setting aside canonicity, how (given the pivotal inconsistencies) can the new novels be part of a possible Dune universe? (Ie. how can you read them as such?)

And, how is changing Paul's status as tragic anti-hero to 'hero turned tyrant', calling off the Golden Path, reinventing and subverting the point of the Butlerian Jihad, etc. etc. not pissing all over Frank's grave? How can you call yourself a fan of Frank Herbert and defend authors who are deliberately or through monumental stupidity/lack of knowledge tearing his work down to their level?

Simon · Post by **Simon** » 22 Oct 2008 00:48

SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote:Wow, six pages before I even heard of this lovely new topic.

I'm not sure I even care to partake. My defense of the new stuff is not point based. I've never disagreed with the fact that there are errors in continuity.
On all fronts, FH through BH and KJA. It just didn't ruin the story for me, I choose to overlook them. Because, for me, Dune is about my entertainment first and foremost.

I'm sorry if my "life is a salad bar, take what you want and leave the rest" mentality offends some of you. That's me. I'll apologize when I'm wrong but I won't apologize for being myself.

I've actually been thinking I should stop posting here. Take my own good advice about not wasting the time complaining about things that can't be changed. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change",and all of that. I really think you guys are missing out but if the new books aren't your thing, OK.

I have no interest in doing a bullet point presentation of my defense of the new books. I can tell you what I like about them, even tell you what I didn't, but my defense isn't a "the worm in one book measured in at yay so much, while the worm in this book measured it at this much." That just isn't how my mind works.

All that said, I'm off to page 1 of this thread to try and answer whatever points I can.
Right now, i'd be most interested in what you have to say about Paul's incomplete, non-literal visions in PoD or the fact that he foresaw Leto's birth in PoD.

As clearly stated by others on this site, Paul's visions of all possible futures were so clear that he could pilot a 'thopter blind.

Paul was so surprised by Leto at his birth that he collapsed.

Both of these inconsistencies are huge and show that the authors of PoD do not care to re-read the original Dune books and by not caring, pissing people off who do re-read and care about the original books.

I have nothing, it's one of those things in print, in those thousands of volumes, it is what it is. I took it as his reflection on one of the many multiple possible futures from that point in the story (those early years after his ascention.) I imagine that his shock at Leto's birth could be in it's happening in the timeline he was living by CoD, a future where a son wasn't expected...

SimonH · Post by **SimonH** » 22 Oct 2008 00:54

Simon wrote:
SimonH wrote:
Simon wrote:Wow, six pages before I even heard of this lovely new topic.

I'm not sure I even care to partake. My defense of the new stuff is not point based. I've never disagreed with the fact that there are errors in continuity.
On all fronts, FH through BH and KJA. It just didn't ruin the story for me, I choose to overlook them. Because, for me, Dune is about my entertainment first and foremost.

I'm sorry if my "life is a salad bar, take what you want and leave the rest" mentality offends some of you. That's me. I'll apologize when I'm wrong but I won't apologize for being myself.

I've actually been thinking I should stop posting here. Take my own good advice about not wasting the time complaining about things that can't be changed. "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can't change",and all of that. I really think you guys are missing out but if the new books aren't your thing, OK.

I have no interest in doing a bullet point presentation of my defense of the new books. I can tell you what I like about them, even tell you what I didn't, but my defense isn't a "the worm in one book measured in at yay so much, while the worm in this book measured it at this much." That just isn't how my mind works.

All that said, I'm off to page 1 of this thread to try and answer whatever points I can.
Right now, i'd be most interested in what you have to say about Paul's incomplete, non-literal visions in PoD or the fact that he foresaw Leto's birth in PoD.

As clearly stated by others on this site, Paul's visions of all possible futures were so clear that he could pilot a 'thopter blind.

Paul was so surprised by Leto at his birth that he collapsed.

Both of these inconsistencies are huge and show that the authors of PoD do not care to re-read the original Dune books and by not caring, pissing people off who do re-read and care about the original books.
I have nothing, it's one of those things in print, in those thousands of volumes, it is what it is. I took it as his reflection on one of the many multiple possible futures from that point in the story (those early years after his ascention.) I imagine that his shock at Leto's birth could be in it's happening in the timeline he was living by CoD, a future where a son wasn't expected...

sorry - I didn't expect a good answer and I didn't get one.

if you are not actively trying to make it fit (think "doublespeak" or "2+2=5" out of "1984" by Orwell) then you would read the original reference and try to remember what you thought before any extra information.

Paul had no idea that there was going to be a son. Period. This is because this son was also an oracle and was therefore invisible to him. He could never see him.

I have only read the quotes of PoD posted here (thank god), but the text specifically referred to Leto. There is no confusion. It was a mistake.