Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

boardadmin wrote:

nuduneman wrote:

boardadmin wrote:
Didn't really answer my question though, did you? I think this is because it is (possibly) impossible for you to come to terms with the fact that the books are continuing to do well and to be read by people all over the world ...even after a decade of --- what you would call --- bad writing and poor depth. Either you're right and all of these other people are wrong or it's the other way round. If you accept the fact that there a millions of readers who read the books but don't post online in forums, etc. there must be a large population that enjoy the books but we never hear from them. I would use evidence to support this assumption due to the fact that, again, we're a decade + into the new Dune series' of books and still
going strong. The publisher surely would've dumped the authors if the opposite were true.

I believe the fans of the two "Dune" series are (with a few exceptions) two complete and separate groups. Fans of the original series seem to be older, perhaps, with higher education (meaning university level), and see the original Dune books as literature. They enjoy the complex religious, political, and sociological ideas presented in the books, and enjoy speculating and discussing these ideas in a context away from the books themselves.

Fans of the new series are younger, with less education (possibly due to their age) and see the nuDune books as entertainment. They enjoy the quick, light read, the star wars-like action scenes, and are not overly concerned with broader philosophical themes.

You are dealing with two different types of people. Naturally, there will be disagreement and misunderstanding.

I think we've both given generalizations about the people who read the old and new Dune novels.

Me. I don't read Star Wars novels and I have a Bachelor's Degree. I'm sure there are other folks out there who enjoy the new Dune books who have higher education, too. Likewise I'm sure there are OHers out there who have very little beyond high school level. Just my two cents...

nuduneman wrote:Generalizations, like stereotypes & statistics, are useful in discussing larger-scale phenomena, and can, of course, break down at the individual level.

I think the main gist of my statement is that classic Dune fans may find the new books beneath them, and nuDune fans may find the classic series too complex and difficult to understand. Again, I think this may
have something primarily to do with age.

edit:
I quoted you above mainly for this line :
"books are continuing to do well and to be read by people all over the world"
(I included the entire paragraph for context.)

I think that the group of people who are reading the book ARE NOT the first group, the classic fans. At least, not at this point in the series. After browsing over other Dune sites, the overwhelming evidence is that many, if not most, have not bothered to read them, after their reaction to the first few. Those that do read them are doing primarily to post against the new books, with the honesty of actually having read them. Others rely on the valued opinions of these collegues.

The "people all over the world" group then, in my estimation, are in fact, new fans, who have not yet come to the original series, either because of the daunting complexities of the classic work, or availibility, or any number of other speculative reasons. Perhaps they will do so in time.

boardadmin wrote:

nuduneman wrote:Perhaps they will do so in time.

That is my and my family's fervent hope.

I Sold My Soul A Long Time Ago wrote:That is my and my family's fervent hope.

DrunkenDuncan wrote:

boardadmin wrote:

DrunkenDuncan wrote: I don't see your point, nor do I see the correlation between those two quotes you give.

Of course you don't.

DrunkenDuncan wrote:I'm sorry you feel that way, but I think we "beat on them" for whatever deserves criticism.

Criticism can be warranted, for sure, regardless of the writer or the material. But when you swap criticisms and make counterpoints to points you've made earlier, I begin to question motives. That was my point.

DrunkenDuncan wrote:Slack-off mentats? Criticism. Lazy storytelling via a deus ex machina? Criticism. Familiar characters acting in ways they wouldn't act normally? Criticism. Veering off the Golden Path? Criticism. Lack of a proper ending? Criticism.

The mentats aren't slacking. Was Thufir slacking when he failed to estimate the size of the force that would be attacking them on DUNE? You can't claim one without the other, and that's where I question your motives regarding criticism. I've already covered the deus ex machina argument because it applies directly to what some are claiming to be "transparent" issues regarding the infiltration of the Face Dancers. Sticking to the straight-and-narrow as far as character actions just doesn't fly one iota with me. Characters change. Paul. Alia. IRULAN! And with that change comes changes in their actions. True, Frank was better at the subtleties of this, but the new authors do fine, too. "Veering off the Golden Path?" Do you really think that Frank was going to keep on the Golden Path forever? Let's be realists here. Frank's message was about change over stagnation. And although this was also the message of the Golden Path, it was still a PATH. "Lack of a proper ending?" According to whom?

DrunkenDuncan wrote:I know that you often label these areas as negativity, but we're in a forum! It's unreasonable to think that there won't be any fans who are upset when mediocrity is published as Dune.

I don't begrudge people their opinions, but when it filters into every, single thread, it won't be allowed. Ever. By those with an agenda against the new novels. Now that's transparent.

Byron, I assure you that my motive for posting here is because I love Dune. The only reason it seems that I might have an agenda against the new novels is because of the same reason I gave above. The new novels simply invite criticism. I come to this forum because it's the most active forum in which I can discuss Dune. The other forums are slow and less populated, so I come here. Naturally, there is much talk about the new novels here and I give my opinion when it's prudent to do so. I'm sorry if it seems to you like every single thread ends up negative. Criticism of the new books certainly comes up a lot, but believe me, I would love it if we could be posting how much we love the new books and what they've added to the series. And I would post here just as much! But that simply isn't the case, and I truly think it's sad.

I highly doubt that I've ever contradicted myself as you claim. One of the quotes you gave was by me (the "I'm not a Mentat" comment) and the deus ex machina comment was someone else. Please don't lump us all together and say we contradict ourselves. Contradiction between OHers is to be expected. For instance, many OHers would disagree with me about the revelation in Hunters about the Honored Matres turning out to be founded by revived Axlotl tanks. Pure brilliance, in my opinion. There was something about "now they would be the revered ones" that truly made my jaw drop. Both the revelation and the writing itself impressed me greatly. I'm sure a lot of OHers would disagree with me on this, but that's the way it goes. Different people have differing points to contribute from differing opinions. When it comes to my own opinions, you'll find no contradictions and no agendas.

And no, Thufir wasn't slacking. He was flawed, by his own admission, but he made a mistaken projection. This is much different from Duncan and Teg completely missing the obvious face Dancer infiltration. I can claim one without the other. If it was the same as Thufir's mistake, then a more accurate situation would be if Duncan figured out that there are definitely Face Dancers from the Handler planet aboard the no-ship, but due to bad data, he was led to believe that it was Teg and Sheeana, as opposed to Thufir and the Rabbi. You see, in that situation at least he tried. Instead, Duncan slacked off, which is unacceptable from the universe-saving ultra-mentat. Maybe it was just a giant mentat brain-fart.

Byron wrote:True, Frank was better at the subtleties of this, but the new authors do fine, too.

Well I'm glad we agree on this one. I'm sorry if this seems negative, but "fine" is not why I fell in love with Dune. When someone asks me what i think of the Dune series I use words like "fantastic" and "amazing."

"So I just finished reading God Emperor of Dune."
"How was it?"
"Fine."

To me, the Dune novels were among great literature. If the new authors do fine, then why do they bother at all, especially now that they've written more books than Frank did? I can think of a reason why but every time I mention it, the post is deleted. And it never involves swearing or vulgarity.

Byron wrote:Do you really think that Frank was going to keep on the Golden Path forever?

Yes! It wouldn't be golden if it didn't go on forever. That's what the GP is all about! Eternity! Whether he understood it or not, Paul knew it as terrible purpose, right from the first book. It was GP in the beginning (Dune), GP in the middle (GEoD), so why wouldn't it be GP in the end?

This is why I found the ending unsatisfying. Judging from that ending, humanity will fall into stagnation in a matter of time. Just wait until the robots (or the people) working for Duncan become corrupt and bring his whole system crashing down, like every other charismatic leader in Dune. Or wait until Omnius comes back from the netherworld to get his revenge. Where's the Golden Path in that?

I'm sorry If I seem difficult, but I'm here to discuss Dune. If the new authors want to put out Dune books, then we're bound to discuss them as well.

Byron wrote:I know what you're saying about my deletions of things you've written before, but they are assumptions based on no fact$ and will always be deleted (if you catch my meaning).

DrunkenDuncan wrote:To me, the Dune novels were among great literature. If the new authors do fine, then why do they bother at all, especially now that they've written more books than Frank did? I can think of a reason why but every time I mention it, the post is deleted. And it never involves swearing or vulgarity.

Brian and Kevin LOVE the Duniverse; they've dedicated over a decade of research and writings to it. Granted they aren't as "good as Frank" at it, but I find quality in good enough measurable quantity to continue reading their work.

Hunchback Jack wrote:I think this sentence:

Brian and Kevin LOVE the Duniverse; they've dedicated over a decade of research and writings to it. Granted they aren't as "good as Frank" at it, but I find quality in good enough measurable quantity to continue reading their work.

... is probably an accurate depiction of his opinion. I think he considers FH's work to be far better than the more recent novels, but that the more recent ones are "good enough" to enjoy, and to keep reading as they emerge.

It would be tempting to believe that all the positive comments, rationalization of inconsistencies, and deletion of critical posts, is due to his position as PR man and moderator. But it's probably not that simple.

HBJ

Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.

Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.

Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.

Tleilax Master B wrote:

Freakzilla wrote:I've always gotten the feeling that he's a closet OH. I think he has to defend the new books to feel good about what his family is doing.

Yup. I have always had the same sneaky suspicion......