Jᴀᴄᴜʀᴜᴛᴜ - Tʜᴇ Cᴀsᴛ Oᴜᴛ

Simon wrote:They had two roads to chose from, the safe road would have been apeing FH's style and not adding anything to the Duniverse he didn't devise himself. Which would probably been at least as successful, financially speaking.

Are you fucking kidding me?! Do you think these two hacks have the capacity to "ape" FH? If anyone can ape the master then by all means fucking do it! What's wrong with quality?

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:

Simon wrote:

Frybread wrote:

TheDukester wrote:

Simon wrote:Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place.

I'll give you credit, Simon: you're taking a stance and defending it, and I think you're making an effort to put less "OH = stupid" smarminess in your posts, which is appreciated.

Now to the part where you're misguided.

The "road" taken by Clown 1 and Clown 2 was actually the safest, lamest, and vilest decision they could have made. They've taken a beloved fictional universe with an established, cohesive, and fairly comprehensive history, and they've simply tossed it all out the window. And now they're openly admitting it! Irulan, indeed ... I've never heard of anything so blatantly foolish.

And why? Because they couldn't handle the challenge. They don't have the skill or the basic desire to try to add to Frank Herbert's universe while still respecting established canon.

They couldn't do it because they are hacks. And your hero KJA refused to even try, because having to do some basic research would prevent him from hiking out a new McDune Dune in less than a month.

Yeah, that's some "road" they chose there.

KJA and That Other Guy took the easy way out by saying that FH's work was in-universe and, because much of it was written by Irulan, it is inconsistent so they can be inconsistent in their new crap-I mean, books.

I can accept that certain characters with in the universe had been raised on propaganda history. Though to claim that the original six are in-universe documents like the DE is a bit silly. Where did they say that?
(link please sir) If this is so, then meh, I'll just disregard that. FH is unmutable canon. People can say otherwise but that don't make it so.

Simon,

Kevin said that at a e-mail to Sandchigger:

viewtopic.php?t=44&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=270

http://chiggerblog.hairyticksofdune.net/blog/?p=241

What you have to say? I would like to know what Byron think about that too... I'm a fan of peoples reaction.

Well that'd be impossible. Irulan couldn't have written the histories from GEoD out because she'd have been dead. I'm guessing from the PoD text that he is meaning DUNE, not the entire original six.

Simon wrote:

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:

Simon wrote:

Frybread wrote:

TheDukester wrote:

Simon wrote:Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place.

I'll give you credit, Simon: you're taking a stance and defending it, and I think you're making an effort to put less "OH = stupid" smarminess in your posts, which is appreciated.

Now to the part where you're misguided.

The "road" taken by Clown 1 and Clown 2 was actually the safest, lamest, and vilest decision they could have made. They've taken a beloved fictional universe with an established, cohesive, and fairly comprehensive history, and they've simply tossed it all out the window. And now they're openly admitting it! Irulan, indeed ... I've never heard of anything so blatantly foolish.

And why? Because they couldn't handle the challenge. They don't have the skill or the basic desire to try to add to Frank Herbert's universe while still respecting established canon.

They couldn't do it because they are hacks. And your hero KJA refused to even try, because having to do some basic research would prevent him from hiking out a new McDune Dune in less than a month.

Yeah, that's some "road" they chose there.

KJA and That Other Guy took the easy way out by saying that FH's work was in-universe and, because much of it was written by Irulan, it is inconsistent so they can be inconsistent in their new crap-I mean, books.

I can accept that certain characters with in the universe had been raised on propaganda history. Though to claim that the original six are in-universe documents like the DE is a bit silly. Where did they say that?
(link please sir) If this is so, then meh, I'll just disregard that. FH is unmutable canon. People can say otherwise but that don't make it so.

Simon,

Kevin said that at a e-mail to Sandchigger:

viewtopic.php?t=44&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=270

http://chiggerblog.hairyticksofdune.net/blog/?p=241

What you have to say? I would like to know what Byron think about that too... I'm a fan of peoples reaction.

Well that'd be impossible. Irulan couldn't have written the histories from GEoD out because she'd have been dead. I'm guessing from the PoD text that he is meaning DUNE, not the entire original six.

No, but I'll bet he finds someone else to pen others. Irulan=Messiah; Harq al Ada=Children; BH Historians for the rest. Now kja can write whatever the fuck he wants.

Simon wrote: Well that'd be impossible. Irulan couldn't have written the histories from GEoD out because she'd have been dead. I'm guessing from the PoD text that he is meaning DUNE, not the entire original six.

OMG, Simon! Don't you understand?

KJA is saying that DUNE is a in-universe book, written by Irulan! He took off Frank Herbert, and masterpiece work! For me, that is a very serious thing, don't you agree?

Sorry man, I don't know how you can stand for along time defending these guys.

I'm not American, do you know? Their book are not published in my country (But we can buy it), however can't stay unspeakable seeing what they are doing with the best science fiction universe ever...

Simon wrote:

Lisan Al-Gaib wrote:

Simon wrote:

Frybread wrote:

TheDukester wrote:

Simon wrote:Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place.

I'll give you credit, Simon: you're taking a stance and defending it, and I think you're making an effort to put less "OH = stupid" smarminess in your posts, which is appreciated.

Now to the part where you're misguided.

The "road" taken by Clown 1 and Clown 2 was actually the safest, lamest, and vilest decision they could have made. They've taken a beloved fictional universe with an established, cohesive, and fairly comprehensive history, and they've simply tossed it all out the window. And now they're openly admitting it! Irulan, indeed ... I've never heard of anything so blatantly foolish.

And why? Because they couldn't handle the challenge. They don't have the skill or the basic desire to try to add to Frank Herbert's universe while still respecting established canon.

They couldn't do it because they are hacks. And your hero KJA refused to even try, because having to do some basic research would prevent him from hiking out a new McDune Dune in less than a month.

Yeah, that's some "road" they chose there.

KJA and That Other Guy took the easy way out by saying that FH's work was in-universe and, because much of it was written by Irulan, it is inconsistent so they can be inconsistent in their new crap-I mean, books.

I can accept that certain characters with in the universe had been raised on propaganda history. Though to claim that the original six are in-universe documents like the DE is a bit silly. Where did they say that?
(link please sir) If this is so, then meh, I'll just disregard that. FH is unmutable canon. People can say otherwise but that don't make it so.

Simon,

Kevin said that at a e-mail to Sandchigger:

viewtopic.php?t=44&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=270

http://chiggerblog.hairyticksofdune.net/blog/?p=241

What you have to say? I would like to know what Byron think about that too... I'm a fan of peoples reaction.

Well that'd be impossible. Irulan couldn't have written the histories from GEoD out because she'd have been dead. I'm guessing from the PoD text that he is meaning DUNE, not the entire original six.

if you can just throw that aside then I am dumbfounded. Can you accept KJA's assertion that Dune was written by Irulan? What crap.

ask yourself a question. Can KJA do anything to the Dune series that would make you not buy the next book? Think of the worst thing possible.

Simon, seriously, contact Kevin and ask him what passage in Dune or the other five books by FH they are basing this in-universe reading on. He's obviously not going to answer my second email. (I wish I had been calmer and asked this myself rather than sending what I did.) But ask him.


And reread the emails I exchanged with him again.

I asked Kevin how they are going to retcon having Paul visit Ecaz twice and Grumman once when Dune itself (DUNE, dammit!) has Duke Leto, talking to Paul, refer to their upcoming move to Arrakis as Paul's "first time off planet" (off Caladan).

And in replying he quotes Paul of Dune at me:

One morning [Irulan] went to Paul’s Imperial office to talk with him, holding a first-edition of The Life of Muad’Dib. ... “Exactly how much is missing from this story? I’ve been talking with Bludd. In your accounts of your life, you left out vital details.”

He raised his eyebrows. “Your publication has defined my life’s story.”

“You told me you had never left Caladan before your House moved to Arrakis. Whole parts of your youth have been left out.”

The Life of Muad'Dib is the biography of Paul written by Irulan. Evidently she based it largely on information obtained from Paul. But she is discovering that he didn't tell her everything. One of the things that he evidently didn't tell her was that he had been off Caladan before the Atreides moved to Arrakis. In fact, it appears that he told her just the opposite. We therefore can conclude that Irulan's book states that Paul never left Caladan before coming to Dune.

Now, what you have to ask yourself, Simon, is this: How is that relevant to the question I asked Kevin?

It's not, unless he is saying that Dune IS the book that Irulan wrote. Dune is the only book we have or know that says Paul never left Caladan before the family relocation. Even though the titles are different, Kevin is effectively saying they are the same book.

Please tell me that you understand this.

Paul of Dune should be the book that Irulan had written. That would explain why Frank only gave us excerpts because he knew the rest was a waste of time.

Would also explain why every one in Frank's books was very delicate about describing Irulan's intellect.

What do you mean...she did write it!

Check out that epigraph on p.449 again!

-chig
-well played move! i doubt very seriously you'll receive a response from kevin though. His response sounded pre-planned, but i don't think he thought out the ramifications of it all. I wish they would just admit that they made mistakes. If they had done this a few years ago, instead of treating us like we're nitpicking, we'd probably not spit as much venom their way.Naahh!! They more than likely are under contract to finish this latest string of books, & they certainly have enough less discerning readers (consumers) who will pay 20 odd dollars for them. They will of course get no more of mine. My search continues..

/agree

Seriously, even Clarke wrote in his forward to 2010 that he changed things to fit with the movie version of 2001.

Do you think KJA supports Obama since he is the "Change" candidate?

But yeah, if KJA had come out and said "oops" we'd have let him off the hook a bit easier. Rather he decided to show he doesn't give a fuck. Since he can't be bothered to fact check when he's out 'dictating the gospel' its obvious that we are the ones who are infidels in his eyes. (Talifan anyone?)

Again, he writes for the scene through flow of consciousness so the only facts that matter are the ones RIGHT NOW. If it makes this moment cooler, screw the fact that we told you two sentences ago that it was impossible.

I'd bet that he and BH win some "award" soon that is cooked up by his supporters, probably the L Ron Presents "Greatest Hacks in the Universe in a Non-Religious so-called text".

SandChigger wrote:What do you mean...she did write it!

Check out that epigraph on p.449 again!

Yeah, that epigraph makes no sense at all, unless the in-universe "Paul of Dune" is not the PoD in the reader's hands. And if so, well ... ah, screw it, I don't care enough to try to figure it out.

Two things are clear, though:
1) These guys didn't think this metafiction thing through at all before deciding to do it.
2) If Irulan's PoD is not KJA's PoD, I'd rather read Irulan's. It will be better written.

HBJ

Well, by FH's Irulan it would be.

Not this sappy new "Ooh, look, Muadru patterns, I LOVE Paul!" bint.

Ah, good point.

But even then, it might be a close-run thing .

HBJ

Simon wrote:My opinion is bias on this one but I see them trying to make a nitch for themselves in the Duniverse. As an artist I applaud that. They had two roads to chose from, the safe road would have been apeing FH's style and not adding anything to the Duniverse he didn't devise himself. Which would probably been at least as successful, financially speaking. Then you have the road they took, trying to make their own place. Their success in that is debatable, and regardless of various fan stances we all agree (even BH and KJA I'd bet) that Frank can't be matched.

I do see what you're getting at, and in other circumstances I might even agree with it. But the new books are so completely different, and yet so completely close to the originals.

There is nothing stopping these authors developing something unique that is also consistent with FH's books and creating something really a bit special. New elements and the occasional retcon (as FH did on occasion) would be fine, if they were not so blatant and sweeping. Case in point: Paul of Dune. Tell me there isn't a better Jihad story in there. One that does not go so against what FH wrote, and still packs more punch than what they actually delivered?

Maybe this is uncalled for but I just had to run with an idea I had last night...





Note: my Photoshop skills leave much to be desired.

"Hikes around in underwear,
Kay-Jay-Ay, chimpanzee"

Don't recognize the character or know the song, but I likes!


Let's face it, I'm cool (I first wrote "down". What's that shit?) with anything that makes Kevin look like the ass he is.

ON WITH THE SHEW!!!

Chiggaman wrote:Let's face it, I'm cool (I first wrote "down". What's that shit?) with anything that makes Kevin look like the ass he is.

You're a hipster, daddy-o. In touch with the new generation, man. I can dig it.

Far out, solid and right on!

BITE my sainted (kosher) butt.

Bummer.

sparafucile wrote:"Hikes around in underwear,
Kay-Jay-Ay, chimpanzee"

I hope you like my new sig.

Oh, Chig, in case you thought you missed out on something during your childhood, I present to you the greatest superhero born from the powers of the internetz (because it clearly wasn't this guy).

Impressive sig. Thanks for the links; I'll probably wait till Monday to check them out (the connection here at home is really slow this weekend for some reason).

Awesome, sig quoted